• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

triple-blind experiments

"In the triple blind experiment all participants are blind to the controls and to the very fact of the experiment itself".
That would be a bit hard to get through my IRB - no informed consent. Also, it sounds like what he's describing are massive correlational studies, not experiments.
 
Besides- even knowing of the potential existence of 3-b experiments in which I might be a hapless prawn has added to my stress levels. My cortisol level is climbing, Dave. I can feel it.
 
warning: lots o' readin'

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kelly06/kelly06_index.html

I used to hear the kooks say their experiments would be triple-blind, making them better than double-blind studies. I guess I was wrong to make fun of them.

Nah, you were right to make fun of them. This guy's just being another kook. The word "triple-blind" actually has a standard meaning that he's unaware of -- it's one where neither the subject, the person who does the experimental manipulation, nor the person who does the data analysis knows whether the subject is in the experimental group or not.

E.g, the prescribing physician knows whether the subject got the red pill or the blue pill (but not which one has the real drug). However, he doesn't do the post tests himself, instead letting a colleague of his, who doesn't even know the color of the pill the subject took, evaluate whether or not the patient has improved.
 
I have thought of how one might test the effectiveness of something like accupuncture using a placebo other than shamcupuncture.

Basically, here's my little idea. Make sure the two groups have no idea that the other group is getting whatever they are getting. Tell the sugar pill eaters that there are two groups, one getting sugar pills and one getting actual medicine (but that's a lie). Tell the people getting the acupuncture there are two groups getting it, one with "the real thing" and the other as "sham accupuncture". To keep it blindish as possible, two groups of scientists will moniter each group totally unaware the other exists. Each will be told the same story and will be taking notes accordingly. The people applying the accupuncture and the sham accupuncture will be varied up a bit, and both groups will do the real thing, no sham actually involved at all, just not being aware of it. Once all the results of this are tallied by the overlord, the secret will be revealed to all and it can then be determined if accupuncture is more affective than sugar pills. I hope I explained it right, and I hope I thought of everything, but somehow I think there's some critical flaw in my plan...
 
...but somehow I think there's some critical flaw in my plan...
Acupuncture is more effective than sugar pills. At least it could be without having any merit. It could just be that sticking needles in your arm has a stronger placebo effect than eating pills.

About triple blind... Let them pass double blind, and then I'll read their website. :)
 
Acupuncture is more effective than sugar pills... It could just be that sticking needles in your arm has a stronger placebo effect than eating pills.

Assuming that needles, not pills, was the particular placebo for that patient...

Remarkable "degrees" of placebo, across the board, would actually suggest a non-placebo effectiveness.
 
No, there are some experiments where the person being experimented on doesn't know it.
Really? They wouldn't get those published in the peer reviewed journals that I know about if they were not approved by an IRB. And that doesn't happen without the informed consent of the people being experimented upon.So what experiments are you talking about? Got a reference?
 
Last edited:
I thought that double blind referred to "the subjects" and "everyone else." If not, then we could have 5- or 6-blind experiments, too.

~~ Paul
 
I thought that double blind referred to "the subjects" and "everyone else." If not, then we could have 5- or 6-blind experiments, too.

I suppose in theory we could -- but the point is not to rack the numbers as high as we can, but to identify and eliminate sources of bias.

Triple-blinding covers yet another source of bias that traditional double-blinding doesn't. In a typical double-blind experiment, I as the experimentor know which group (red pill or blue pill, group A or group Bl) a subject belongs to, but not whether the placebo is red or blue.

However, I might be able to make a guess about which is which. There have been a number of cases where a double-blind study has been stopped midway through on ethical reasons, because it's so obvious that group A is getting an effective treatment and group B is the control that it becomes unethical to withhold treatment from group B. That's an extreme example, but it does show that merely not formally knowing which pill is which doesn't accomplish total blinding.

The problem is in cases that are less clear-cut. Suppose, for example, that I'm testing a particular drug, and one of the patients in group A (whichever that is) starts showing signs of a serious side effect -- grossly elevated blood pressure, or something like that. Something serious enough to warrant closer monitoring of all of group A in case it's caused by the drug. But if I start monitoring group A (but not group B), then I'm no longer giving both groups the same treatment --the "placebo" isn't. But if I start monitoring both group A and B, knowing that group A is the group that I consider "at risk," then I'm likely to start biasing the results. Someone from group B comes in with a marginally elevated blood pressure, and I might not take it as seriously as if someone from group A comes in with the exact same numbers.

So my mere knowledge of which group they're in is going to bias my interpretation of the clinical presentation. This could also apply to something as simple as evaluating the effectiveness of a new pain-killer. If the first three patients I interview from group A tell me that this new pain pill is the greatest thing since the invention of beer, I might come to expect that group A will report improved performance, and start mentally upgrading the effectiveness of reports from that group.

So a fairer and less biased way of doing this is to let someone else do the monitoring, someone who knows that the patients are involved in an experiment, but not which specific group they're in. So this way, I can say "I want you to monitor all sixty patients for blood pressure," and they'll get the same treatment regardless of the color of the pill they get, and I can tabulate the results this third physician got later as another, independently blinded, study of the effect of this drug on b.p.

If you can figure out yet another source of bias that isn't covered in this triply-blinded study, then by all means, propose another protocol extension. Write it up for the JAMA, if you need to. The whole point of these kind of trials is to minimize bias anyway.... and if it takes ten separate physicians to run an experment "properly," then that just means more co-authorship opportunities.
 
Need a quadrooople blind study, one where the experimenters are unaware that they are experimenting on any subjects, who are equally in the dark. I think there's some science afoot.
 
Drkitten said:
If you can figure out yet another source of bias that isn't covered in this triply-blinded study, then by all means, propose another protocol extension. Write it up for the JAMA, if you need to. The whole point of these kind of trials is to minimize bias anyway.... and if it takes ten separate physicians to run an experment "properly," then that just means more co-authorship opportunities.
Ah, okay. I assumed that double-blind experiments meant that absolutely no one knew what was what.

So we need to blind (1) the patients; (2) the experimenters; (3) the doctors and nurses; (4) the data collectors; (5) the statistician; ... have I surpassed triple-blind yet?

Note definition of triple blind here:

http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cn...zcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_t_19zPzhtm

Oh, and here:

http://www.sahealthinfo.org/evidence/t-w.htm

~~ Paul
 
There are tons of psych experiments where the participants don't hear what's going on until after. Every psych 101 student has had the experience where the teacher gives a pop quiz, leaves the room, and then someone wearing a cast comes in, asks to borrow a chair, and then has endless trouble moving the chair.
 
There are tons of psych experiments where the participants don't hear what's going on until after. Every psych 101 student has had the experience where the teacher gives a pop quiz, leaves the room, and then someone wearing a cast comes in, asks to borrow a chair, and then has endless trouble moving the chair.
Can you elaborate on that? It sounds interesting.

Would such a study be publishable (is that even a word?)?
 
Ah, okay. I assumed that double-blind experiments meant that absolutely no one knew what was what.

So we need to blind (1) the patients; (2) the experimenters; (3) the doctors and nurses; (4) the data collectors; (5) the statistician; ... have I surpassed triple-blind yet?

How many times have we been over this?

There are three main groups of people in any experiment:
a) person(s) receiving the treatment
b) person(s) administering the treatment
c) person(s) analyzing the data

(and, of course, sometime b) and c) are the same person(s))

In your list above,

1 is in a), 2 and 3 and possibly 4 are in b), and 5 and possibly 4 are in c).
 
Please don't take me too seriously.

So why don't we throw everyone but the patients in the second group and stick with double-blind? I guess because experimenters have done so-called double-blind experiments where certain people were not blinded, so they needed to invent triple-blind to correct their mistakes.

In the first link I posted, they don't include the experimenters in the triple-blind list. In the second link I posted, they don't include the doctors and nurses in the triple-blind list. Here:

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Triple_20Blind_20Trial

they have a completely different definition of triple blind.

I'm still pushing for quintuple blinding.

~~ Paul
 
So why don't we throw everyone but the patients in the second group and stick with double-blind?

Because we may need to separate different groups of people-who-aren't-patients.

For example, the dispensing physician and the evaluating physician, as in the example I gave earlier.
 
So why don't we throw everyone but the patients in the second group and stick with double-blind?

Because people administering the treatment aren't always the same people who are analyzing the data. If they are, then great. If not, and 'not' occurs all the time in real life, then a triple blind may be needed.
 

Back
Top Bottom