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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Emily's Cat

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Well, the Spanish government seems to have given the final ok to our own gender reform law, "La Ley Trans". As far as I understand, (news outlets are not giving much detail) you can self-id and it just requires a simple declaration, no medical certificates or any other kind, then there is a waiting time of "up to 3 months", then a second declaration, then another wait of "up to one month" and done. In previous drafts there were some provisions of possible fines if the declaration was deemed false, I'm not sure if it's like that still.

I didn't think it would pass. There have been many important feminist voices against. At the beginning these voices were ignored and shut down with accusations of transphobia etc. , following a familiar pattern, but lately these gender critical voices were appearing quite visibly in mainstream media...
We'll see how it goes. Spanish laws give many benefits to women so this loophole will presumably be exploited. Still, laws here are usually drafted in an ambiguous way and then judges create some jurisprudence one way or the other, perhaps they will try to close the loophole that way.

Next year general elections will take place so this law might not last. We shall see...

Oh, please keep us in the loop on how it's working, what challenges are presented, and how it evolves!
 
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No, that wasn't the matter at hand here.

The matter at hand was to do with some sort of "perceived virtue" rating of transwomen, predicated on how masculine their face might look and how much they might or might not have been perceived as female as younger people before transitioning.

Apparently - according to the viewpoint of at least two posters - transwomen who either have masculine-looking faces or who were unlikely to have been perceived as females in childhood..... are less worthy of being held up for appreciation of the job they do, compared with transwomen who have feminine-looking faces or who were mistaken for females when they were younger.

Your interpretation is incorrect. A transgender identified male who grew up as a male with all of the social benefits that accrue to males - particularly in the realm of science - is inappropriate to be held up for appreciation as a female above the achievements of females.

They have overcome none of the barriers to advancement that females face, because they have never had to face those barriers at all.
 
I saw one supportive one, but that's what it looks like to me also.

I noticed they have now blocked replies. I've seen this happen many times. Obviously they were expecting a different reaction.
Either there is overwhelming hatred for transwomen out there, or this move was a significant balls up on the part of an organisation ostensibly intending to big up women.
 
I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly . . . . It looks to me as if every single reply to the tweet is highly critical of the action in question. Is that right? I might not have scrolled all of them. Seems very odd but I'm not too familiar with twitter and the dynamics of pile-ons and suchlike.


Ah yes, there's a very good reason for that. See, what has happened is that the anti-transgender-identity community on Twitter has organised a mass pile-on. If you care to scroll the Twitter feeds of pretty much every anti-transgender-identity commentator (oh, I mean "gender-critical commentator" (I don't mean that)), from the highest profile to the rank and file, you'll see clearly that they've retweeted about this story exponentially and encouraged - both explicitly and implicitly - the pile-on.

In fact, the only reason I even came across this story in the first place was because it suddenly began featuring all over the twitter profiles of the "usual-suspect" anti-transgender-identity people. There appears to be a pretty dedicated and zealous band who maintain a constant scouring presence on social media and other media sources, looking specifically for stories such as this (very obscure) one. And any time anyone finds a story like this, it's quickly socialised round the like-minded group. The primary goal of this appears to be the need to set up retaliatory pile-ons. It's all rather strange and sad, in my view.
 
I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly . . . . It looks to me as if every single reply to the tweet is highly critical of the action in question. Is that right? I might not have scrolled all of them. Seems very odd but I'm not too familiar with twitter and the dynamics of pile-ons and suchlike.

Huge number of views and relatively few likes. Note that many of the antagonistic replies have more likes than the original tweet; this is called getting ratioed and indicates a very unpopular or particularly stupid tweet.
 
Good read from Matt Y. formerly of Vox

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1626176881434189825

Importantly, because youth gender dysphoria treatment is an off-label use of drugs that were originally created to treat precocious puberty, the big clinical trials that were conducted for FDA approval don’t really speak to the issue at hand in a clear way. Again, this is not some special feature of gender-affirming care or the fault of anyone in the trans community. But it’s also not a fever dream of the reactionary right. A structural feature of American health regulation is that the FDA sets a very high bar for approving drugs but a very light regulatory bar for their off-label use. Pharmaceutical companies have no incentive to organize new clinical trials because their medication is already being used for this purpose and the market is growing.

Seems to me that the taboo on these discussions is beginning to erode, here on this side of the pond. It is no longer sufficient to call someone phobic or bigoted and thereby shut down the discussion.
 
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Ah yes, there's a very good reason for that. [. . . ]
Ah thanks. Any reason why the progressive consensus who are nice inclusive people didn't nip that nastiness in the bud? I would have thought that would be easy since there are so many more of them.
 
Good read from Matt Y. formerly of Vox

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1626176881434189825



Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Unusual for me not a single point of disagreement with the author.

Would like him expand on some aspects - for example the ".... But the structural commonality among their points is that affirmation of an equal right to human dignity does not determine a unique answer to all of these questions." I think that could be teased out more and make explicit the wider issue caused by there not being a "single principle" answer to the many questions raised when we try to ensure all are treated with dignity and how we should be wary of those pushing a single answer i.e. the extremism in the "transwomen are woman" and "transwomen are men" camps.
 
Unfortunately when the continuation thread was created it didn't inherit the [Moderated] thread attribute so posts made - (UK time) after 11:17 AM 17th Feb and up to this post were not subject to mod team approval before being made visible.
Posted By: Darat
 
Ah thanks. Any reason why the progressive consensus who are nice inclusive people didn't nip that nastiness in the bud? I would have thought that would be easy since there are so many more of them.


I should have thought that was fairly easy to understand (on top of many other factors, there's the obvious matter of timing: this obscure article was discovered, socialised and "replied to" by hundreds of anti-transgender-identity activists before most normal people even knew of its existence....)

Allowing this reply through because of what happened when the continuation thread was created (see the INFO box above) but lets now leave how Twitter views etc. can be influenced for a different thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
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I think that could be teased out more and make explicit the wider issue caused by there not being a "single principle" answer to the many questions raised when we try to ensure all are treated with dignity and how we should be wary of those pushing a single answer i.e. the extremism in the "transwomen are woman" and "transwomen are men" camps.
Agreed. Each issue needs to be taken separately and carefully rather than assuming in advance that gender needs to take priority over sex or vice-versa.
 
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I see. That's a very interesting way to look at it.

I don't think it's all that interesting.

Imagine if you will, that during African American History month, organizations were to hold up Rachel Dolezal for approbation of the achievements black people have made.

Do you think that would be appropriate? Dolezal is a white person, who has a black identity. They identify as black, but they are factually white. Throughout their childhood, they did not face the barriers that black people face, and they benefited from the privileges accorded to white people.

But Dolezal at least managed to pass as black somewhat. Or at least as mixed, so perhaps they have faced some degree of race-based discrimination that they've overcome.

I think most people would consider it inappropriate to honor Dolezal as a black person for AAHM. I think it's reasonable that most people find it inappropriate.

Now imagine that it's Margot Robbie who is being held up and applauded during African American History Month, being lauded for the advancement they have made as a trans-black person.

Robbie is obviously not black. They've never passed as black, and any current attempts to seem black would very likely be viewed as "blackface". To honor Robbie and showcase their achievements as "black achievements" during AAHM would not just be inappropriate, it would be offensive.

Consider the message that would be implied in that act of honoring an obviously and unquestionably white person during AAHM, on the basis of them identifying as black. They've never faced anti-black racist discrimination. They've never experienced the systemic disparities that black people face. They've had all of the advantages of growing up white in a system and culture that still has a considerable amount of racism.

The underlying message in the choice to hold up a white person for accolades during AAHM is that black people are of so little worth that the organization thinks white people make better black people than black people do.
 
An insightful* satire in The Onion, referencing the recent anti-transgender-identity stance of the New York Times:

https://www.theonion.com/it-is-journalism-s-sacred-duty-to-endanger-the-lives-of-1850126997

The NYT doesn't have an anti-transgender-identity stance.

* and one that fits into the category of "it'd be funny if it wasn't so close to the bone"....

The reason it's not funny has nothing to do with cutting too close to the bone. The reason it's not funny is because it's badly written, completely predictable, and incredibly boring. This is "applause" comedy, not actual humor.
 
I think that the risk of exploitation and loopholes, and the attendant risk associated with them ought to be considered as well.

When this thread first started out, I took a position of not caring about bathrooms at all, and thinking that most locker rooms and showers that were public and for adult use should be available as long as everyone behaved. I didn't think that allowing young males into the locker rooms of school aged females was appropriate, nor vice versa. And I thought prisons should require complete surgical alteration.

I've moved away from that over time... because they have all been exploited and abused over and over again. Repeatedly it is females who get the short end of the stick, who are subjected to a male presence where one is neither expected nor desired. Over and over we have seen unaltered males who feel justified exposing their genitals to females who do not wish to see them, including children. We've seen the entire middle school swim team being told that it was the *right* of the male-bodied transgender person to be naked in the shower during their swim practice, and that if they didn't like it they could all go use the lifeguard's shower one at a time. We've seen females being told that they're bigots for having *noticed* the semi-erect penis of the male in the female-only area of the sauna. We've seen female athletes lose team positions, records, and awards because a male-bodied person claimed that on the basis of their internal and unverifiable gender identity. We've seen female prisoners given no choice in the matter, having to share a cell with a male inmate who developed a newfound gender identity while incarcerated. We've seen female inmates raped by transgender identified males who were granted right of choice in their incarceration. We watched a 26 year old male rapist get placed in a female juvenile detention center, because of his claimed gender identity.

I wish that some practical compromise were possible. But as long as self-id is on the table, that cannot happen. Self-id grants rights to any and all males, and it overrides the rights of females. It completely obliterates the entire concept of consent and sexual barriers for females.

As long as self-id is on the table, no compromise is possible. We've already been shown that it will be exploited, and that females will be harmed as a result.

Hi EC. I'm trying to reply to your comment from the last chapter of this thread. Not sure if I'm doing that correctly.

I really do appreciate the points you raised and understand what you mean. There are some really terrible potential consequences here and they certainly aren't just hypothetical. I guess when I talk about balance, I am also trying to consider the potential and real benefits as well, such as trans people facing less stigma and violence and a potential societal shift towards increased awareness of and compassion with respect to challenges people face with gender ideology and constructs. I have limited perspective and experience with this first hand and often use this thread to try to understand where the crux of the tension and challenge lies as I try to consider it, and allow my perspective to broaden and mature a little if possible. Thank you for sharing the perspectives and outcomes that resonate the most strongly with you.
 
Yes. And the overwhelming majority of recognition goes to ciswomen.

Besides which, your viewpoint appears to discount both a) the potential barriers that transwomen/transgirls might face in pursuing STEM studies/careers, and b) the point in her life at which this particular person might have transitioned to being a transwoman.

Responding to point b) first. My question about whether this person had been perceived to be a man or a women (or a girl or a boy) throughout her life was precisely to try to understand if she had, in fact, grown up and progressed in her career while facing and overcoming the potential challenges that are faced by women, which is the primary reason efforts are made to celebrate their successes. So, rather than discounting this, it was a specific effort to understand and appreciate this aspect, if applicable.

Re: point a) I do not think someone perceived as male, even if trans, would face the challenges that women have faced in STEM. I do not discount that they may have their own, unique challenges, but to me, that is a different discussion than celebrating women who have had success in STEM. If you feel differently, I am happy to read and consider your perspective.
 
Unusual for me not a single point of disagreement with the author.

Would like him expand on some aspects - for example the ".... But the structural commonality among their points is that affirmation of an equal right to human dignity does not determine a unique answer to all of these questions." I think that could be teased out more and make explicit the wider issue caused by there not being a "single principle" answer to the many questions raised when we try to ensure all are treated with dignity and how we should be wary of those pushing a single answer i.e. the extremism in the "transwomen are woman" and "transwomen are men" camps.

Exactly.
 
The NYT doesn't have an anti-transgender-identity stance.



The reason it's not funny has nothing to do with cutting too close to the bone. The reason it's not funny is because it's badly written, completely predictable, and incredibly boring. This is "applause" comedy, not actual humor.


1) What do you think prompted The Onion to publish this satire? Who/what do you think it's satirising? (Hint: NYT)

2) It was amusing, right on the money, and a fine piece of satire which justifiably lampooned its target by holding its target's viewpoint up to the light - just like most of what The Onion does. I completely understand why some would like to think otherwise though.
 
"Good journalism is about finding those stories, even when they don’t exist."

Thankfully people like Chloe Cole are just figments of satirical imagination.
 
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