transgendered 7 year old?

[Miss Anthrope]

I just watched this news story. I'm absolutely conflicted.

 

[Boo]

I can't get the link to work. I'm presuming the story is about a child that has had gender surgery without being born a hermaphodite?




Boo

 

[petra10]

most children at some stage show an interest in the toys and stuff of the opposit sex.What interests me most about this story is the fact they already had five boys and maybe they wanted their sixth child to be a girl.Somehow whether they meant to or not i think their desire for a girl could have influenced the child.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.

Is it actually a confirmed scientific fact that many people are born into the wrong sex? I find it really fascinating.

 

[boloboffin]

With that story, "Ashley" is busted, even though they never show her face. They show a school picture and her bedroom, and people will figure it out - especially when they meet her parents. I think a lot more care should have been taken by all concerned to protect her identity.

Boo: the girl has not had surgery and was not born a hermophodite. She lives her daily life as a girl - the parents switched school and enrolled her as a girl then.

 

[Bikewer]

As I recall, there is still some dispute in medical circles as to whether this is a physiological condition or a psychiatric one.

There was a lot of discussion as to whether gender-reassignment surgery actually is of benefit to such people. Of course, it might be that they are thoroughly messed-up psychologically by the time they seek such surgery.....

When I was reading a lot of stuff (mostly John Money) on paraphilia and "forensic sexology", he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.
There's a lot of room for error in this process, which he felt contributed to the overwhelmingly disproportionate number of males suffering from various paraphilias.
I don't know off hand if "gender diasphoria" as the condition is called is more common amongst males; I'm inclined to think so.

 

[TragicMonkey]

When I was reading a lot of stuff (mostly John Money) on paraphilia and "forensic sexology", he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.
There's a lot of room for error in this process, which he felt contributed to the overwhelmingly disproportionate number of males suffering from various paraphilias.

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

I don't think I'd really take his theories on sexual identity too seriously.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

I don't think I'd really take his theories on sexual identity too seriously.

Well, he didn't do it, but studied David Reimer after his penis was destroyed by a botched circumcision.

Just too horrible.. too, absolutely awful.. words cannot express what I feel for that guy when I think of him...life is so awful...

 

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.

Could you not at least wait for the hormones to kick in at puberty before doing anything.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

A lot of excellent comments. I find myself really challenged internally by this story. While a large part of me wants this child to feel supported and accepted, I worry. I worry about parental influence as mentioned in "wanting a girl". I worry about the child's identity being "busted" for sure. I worry so many of the consequences of living like this at such a young age. I am especially concerned about the child "attempting to cut off his own penis". Could there be other issues going on? Yes, and that troubles me a great deal.

Puberty certainly could clarify things. Regardless of the true cause, I think this kid needs psychiatric care for a number of reasons. Even if it is simply a matter of guidance and support--this is a tough life decision. One that seems unfathomable to me as a parent.

 

[Cactus Wren]

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

Well, he didn't do it, but studied David Reimer after his penis was destroyed by a botched circumcision.

Exactly. So he only castrated the kid.

John Colapinto's original Rolling Stone article, in which David Reimer is referred to as "John/Joan Theissen"

 

[corplinx]

I think the parents need to be flogged and the kid needs to be sent to the kind of therapist that helps damaged minds, not the kind that teaches you to accept yourself.

Conflicted? Are people too scared to say that "thats f*cked up" anymore?

ITS A SEVEN YEAR OLD

This transgender crap is out of control.

Edited to add: If you grow up and want to live life as a chick or dude, more power to you. I could care less. TransAmerica was a good movie. BUT THIS IS MESSED UP. LIKE YOUNG GIRLS GETTING COSMETIC SURGERY BAD. NO WORSE ACTUALLY.

 

[Art Vandelay]

he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.

I don't think that "fact" is the right word.

 

[Alt+F4]

First off, John Money was a monster who I hope is now burning in hell.

As for this child, yeah it's a difficult position for the parents to be in but all they have to do is talk to the parent's of a child with cancer or autism to realize how truly blessed they really are.

 

[Earthborn]

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow

This is untrue. It is not so rare for children to identify and experiment cross-gender behaviour, and it is often a phase they grow out of or becomes less important to their identity. Children who do that don't always claim to be of the opposite sex, they might also claim that they just 'like girly things', but when a child suffers lots of distress from having role they don't like and even want to cut off parts of themselves, that is usually indicative that the transgendered feelings will persist.

Is it actually a confirmed scientific fact that many people are born into the wrong sex?

No, but it is a confirmed scientific fact that some people feel that way.

Of course, it might be that they are thoroughly messed-up psychologically by the time they seek such surgery.....

If they are "thoroughly messed-up psychologically" then they will not get medical treatment for their transsexualism, at least not in the West and via official medical establishments. The Standards Of Care For Transsexuals do not allow sexchange on demand.

I don't know off hand if "gender diasphoria" as the condition is called is more common amongst males;

It's called "gender dysphoria" (the opposite of "euphoria) and it does appear more common among biological males. That is to say more biological males seek treatment for it than biological females. It is unknown whether this is the result of pure biological differences in the condition between M->Fs and F->Ms or that it is because societal attitudes make it easier for biological females to exhibit masculine behaviour without having to change gender role.

I worry about parental influence as mentioned in "wanting a girl".

I worry about parental influence too, but I am highly skeptical that parents wanting a girl can influence a child so profounly that s/he wants to be a girl. I worry more about the parents attitude towards what is appropriate behaviour for boys and girls. This kid associates femininity very strongly with dolls and frilly dresses and considers things like trucks as typical boy things. This probably means that the parents taught a strict division in things that are appropriate for boys and for girls. That means that wanting to play with certain things the child has to strongly reject one gender role in favour of another.

There are also parents who do not teach their children a strict gender division and teach their children that it is acceptable for a boy to like dolls and a girl to like trucks. With such parents a transgendered boy does not have to reject a male role right away to be able to play with dolls, and does not learn to refuse to play with trucks in order to feel accepted the way s/he is.

I worry about the child's identity being "busted" for sure.

That's a serious problem of all "living in Stealth". It would be far better if the child could live in an environment where she could be accepted for being a bit different, than having to conform to strict gender norms that only accept one or the other.

I am especially concerned about the child "attempting to cut off his own penis". Could there be other issues going on?

Other issues? Sounds like typical transsexual behaviour to me.

Puberty certainly could clarify things.

Puberty is not some magical thing that solves everything. Just because you don't think things are clear and need to be "clarified" by puberty doesn't mean puberty is needed or is able to clarify anything. If this is a clear case, all that puberty does is make the child's condition far worse. If it is not a clear case, all puberty does is highlight the uncertainty.

Regardless of the true cause, I think this kid needs psychiatric care for a number of reasons. Even if it is simply a matter of guidance and support

I agree wholeheartedly. But I am biased; I happen to think everyone could use competent and professional guidance and support in their lives.

I think the parents need to be flogged and the kid needs to be sent to the kind of therapist that helps damaged minds, not the kind that teaches you to accept yourself.

A good therapist would try to do both, at the same time. Self-acceptance is very important even if one has a "damaged mind". I see no reason to assume this child has a "damaged mind". Maybe you know more about this case? Has she been diagnosed as clinically depressed, or schizophrenic or psychopathic or as obsessive compulsive or something?

Conflicted? Are people too scared to say that "thats f*cked up" anymore?

Maybe. Or maybe they are not, when something is "f*cked up". Your question may be answered when something "f*cked up" comes along.

ITS A SEVEN YEAR OLD

I fail to see why age is relevant.

BUT THIS IS MESSED UP. LIKE YOUNG GIRLS GETTING COSMETIC SURGERY BAD. NO WORSE ACTUALLY.

So invasive surgery on young children is by definition worse than no invasive surgery on young children?

Personally I think it depends on the situation. I don't think there is necessarily a problem with young girls getting cosmetic surgery to fix a deformity (even if it is minor) if that makes that young girl feel more confident about herself and more normal and the surgery will not cause serious problems during growth. I also don't think there is necessarily a problem with teaching children that it is okay to be a bit different than other people, which is the case here.

TransAmerica was a good movie.

No, it wasn't.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

People have horrible lives...

 

[Bikewer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Money was involved in that case, apparently. However, he was also a noted authority in many aspects of "sexology" and has written a large number of books that are still considered standard in the field.
If one Googles "sexology" or "paraphilia" now, chances are references to the man will be at the top of the list.

 

[Z]

Our own seven-year-old has been formally diagnosed as transgender. The changes in her since we learned about this condition and chose to act have been remarkable. I was extremely dubious at first about the whole thing, but not anymore. Seeing 'Luke' transform into 'Danielle' has been an amazing experience - a child that was once difficult, surly, self-abusive and hateful has become an easy-going, friendly, self-loving one. And all we've done is allowed a few feminine bits of clothes, earrings, hair bands, and a feminine hairstyle, along with permitting her to be referred to as 'Danielle' and supplying her with her choice of toys and games.

Her school, in fact, recommended allowing her to come to school dressed as a girl - it seems they've had considerable experience dealing with the occasional transgendered child.

At this point, our intention is to stop at the level of cross-dressing until after puberty, at least. We're just not wealthy enough for the appropriate hormone therapy. We're also holding out a small reservation that it might just be a phase, but we're not hopeful that this is true, at the moment. And when she's old enough, if she wants gender reassignment surgery and we can afford it, we'll support her choice.

All that being said, I do think that transgenderism is the latest medical fad for parents, like ADHD was a decade ago (and still is, to some degree), and hyperactivity in the 70s and 80s (and I.B.S. around here, last decade). And there's no doubt that there are a lot of sicko whackos out there willing to do anything to satisfy their fantasies.

But I also think transgenderism does exist, and that it exists in varying degrees. And I think any loving parent would do anything they could to make a child feel more comfortable with themselves and their bodies.

 

[Alt+F4]

Our own seven-year-old has been formally diagnosed as transgender.

I applaude your decision. What I find curious about very young transgendered children is how they develop such narrow definitions about what is masculine (trucks) and feminine (Barbie).