Transgender identity in kids.

[Antiquehunter]

This is a topic that I genuinely don't 'get'. So my intent of starting this conversation is to try to learn something.

I watched a little news snippet about a 7 year old boy, who apparently wants to join the girl scouts.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/226301/339/Boy-wanting-to-join-Girl-Scouts-told-no

Now - I don't understand transgenderism. I think gender identity can be separate from sexual orientation, although it really is difficult to separate them. (ie, a woman, trapped in a man's body, who is attracted to women?)

What bothers me, is that at 7 years old, people are perhaps going a bit too far with things. I assume that Bobby is clearly a boy - no mention of a rare situation where his physical gender is ambiguous. He happens to be a little boy who likes to appear outwardly as a girl. Which is harmless enough, although presumably a bit difficult on everyone involved.

I'm not convinced this means that Bobby will eventually turn out wanting to live his adult life as a woman. I suppose it is one way the cards will play out. But my experience of being 7 (as much as I can remember) is that my opinions and likes/dislikes switch daily. This could be just a 'phase', or a little attention-getting game, or... anything.

The parents appear to have a fairly laissez-faire attitude towards everything - if he wants to play with Barbies & chooses to wear girls clothes, the less fuss made, the better. But actually putting him into girl scouts to me, strikes me as a bit attention-seeking, or something that just doesn't ring true.

I don't know - I don't have firm opinions on this thing yet, I can say I'm not entirely 'getting' it. Open for debate, please.

 

[IMST]

Girl Scouts generally are fine with this. It wasn't expected to be attention getting, and the national organization has issued a statement that the local group was not correct in saying no. This shouldn't have had any publicity at all if the local group had applied the organizational rules correctly.

As far as the kid, there's a difference between "I want to play with the dolls and wear a dress" and "I'm a girl". The kids that typically are being considered transgendered when this age typically have something more like the second statement. They really, to the extent at 7 that they can effectively articulate it, think of themselves as the other gender, regardless of anatomy.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Yeah - I'm not really bothered by the stance of the Girl Scouts on this. Where I'm going here, is while I think that its healthy for parents not to be terribly fussed by this sort of behaviour, and to be indulgent of kids making choices - I'm not sure if I would go so far as to actively insert a child going through some of the things that Bobby is going through, into something that was a gender-based club.

I mean - as I recall being 7, most of my out of school activities were suggested / dictated by my parents. While I certainly could have an opinion, I didn't go to THEM and say 'hey - I want to be in cub scouts' - it was more like them coming to me saying 'All your friends are in cub scouts, would you like to go to cub scouts?' It wouldn't have taken much for my parents to gently direct me in a certain direction, without getting machiavellian about it.


My logic being:

- Kid is testing out his/her understanding of gender rules & roles
- Ideally, the most healthful and probable resolution is that eventually he/she will identify with the 'typical' attributes of their physical gender
- Later in life, if he/she really is transgender, then they may wish to pursue a more aggressive way to address this issue. Certainly not to take any firm direction until after puberty, presumably several years after.
- So while I should be pretty low key about the thing, I probably should just gently encourage my son to go into boy scouts, or choose a non gender-specific group activity, rather than put him into a situation that exacerbates the issue.

 

[Dessi]

I'm not convinced this means that Bobby will eventually turn out wanting to live his adult life as a woman. I suppose it is one way the cards will play out. But my experience of being 7 (as much as I can remember) is that my opinions and likes/dislikes switch daily. This could be just a 'phase', or a little attention-getting game, or... anything.

The parents appear to have a fairly laissez-faire attitude towards everything - if he wants to play with Barbies & chooses to wear girls clothes, the less fuss made, the better. But actually putting him into girl scouts to me, strikes me as a bit attention-seeking, or something that just doesn't ring true.

I don't know - I don't have firm opinions on this thing yet, I can say I'm not entirely 'getting' it. Open for debate, please.

The very worst thing you can do to a gender variant child is try to "fix" them. It can be emotionally damaging in the extreme.

Its much better to allow to express themselves how they feel most comfortable. At around 10, some kids are put on hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty, which can give them more time to make an informed decision. If they decide not to go through with it, they can get off the hormone blockers and resume puberty; otherwise they can be put on hormone therapy appropriate for their gender.

A lot of transgender people have the feelings from very early in life. You might interested in this interview with Kim Petras:

 

[Antiquehunter]

The very worst thing you can do to a gender variant child is try to "fix" them. It can be emotionally damaging in the extreme.

Its much better to allow to express themselves how they feel most comfortable. At around 10, some kids are put on hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty, which can give them more time to make an informed decision. If they decide not to go through with it, they can get off the hormone blockers and resume puberty; otherwise they can be put on hormone therapy appropriate for their gender.

A lot of transgender people have the feelings from very early in life. You might interested in this interview with Kim Petras:

Thanks Dessi - I'm at the office, so I'll have to wait 'til later to watch the video.

Instinctually, I can see why one would delay the onset of puberty. But I can't help but think that at the onset of puberty, to decide one is going to embark on the very awkward and serious journey of gender reassignment, is a rather irresponsible one. This could just be personal squeamishness / my own values creeping in here, but for a 12 year old child to decide they want to begin hormone therapy to alter their gender just seems... extreme.

On the topic of human sexuality in general, it strikes me that we're just now starting to figure some of this stuff out. And I'm not sure we've figured out these questions to the point where I would put a young person in my care through something so life-changing at a very tender stage in their development.

 

[Arisia]

It sounds like from the statement made by the GS of Colorado after it went to the council level that Bobby has been accepted into Girl Scouts at this point, and that it was originally a local volunteer who didn't understand the GSUSA/GSColorado policy in this situation.

Girl Scouts is an inclusive organization and we accept all girls in Kindergarten through 12th grade as members. If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout. Our requests for support of transgender kids have grown, and Girl Scouts of Colorado is working to best support these children, their families and the volunteers who serve them. In this case, an associate delivering our program was not aware of our approach. She contacted her supervisor, who immediately began working with the family to get the child involved and supported in Girl Scouts. We are accelerating our support systems and training so that we're better able to serve all girls, families and volunteers.

My daughter is a Girl Scout... I don't know how I'd feel if she identified as a boy and wanted to be in Boy Scouts... I doubt they'd be as accepting, since they don't seem to accept anyone who isn't arrow straight. Which is sad, because my husband is an Eagle Scout, and I'd hope that BSUSA wouldn't want to deny any child who identifies as a boy the rewards of attaining that distinction.

 

[IMST]

Boy Scouts certainly would not be accepting at an organizational level, though some local chapters may look the other way. Official policy is no one on the LGBT spectrum, either as a member or a volunteer and no atheists or otherwise identified non believers. And they've won court cases over it. They're very much a subsidiary of the Mormon church in the US these days.

 

[Antiquehunter]

@Arisia - yes, I'm happy that the Girl Scouts seem to have quickly dealt with the matter. My intention with the thread wasn't to get bogged down in a debate about whether or not GSA did the right thing or not, but more the issues of kids being diagnosed (and in some cases, medically treated) for gender 'identity' issues.

For the purpose of what I'm trying to wrap my head around, this situation could just as easily have been a 'girls' ahtletic, music or dance club.

 

[Dessi]

Thanks Dessi - I'm at the office, so I'll have to wait 'til later to watch the video.

Instinctually, I can see why one would delay the onset of puberty. But I can't help but think that at the onset of puberty, to decide one is going to embark on the very awkward and serious journey of gender reassignment, is a rather irresponsible one. This could just be personal squeamishness / my own values creeping in here, but for a 12 year old child to decide they want to begin hormone therapy to alter their gender just seems... extreme.

Its one of those things that, if you aren't tg or don't have close friends and family who are tg, its really hard to relate. I started this thread last month and made a comment about my friend:

One of parents in the group has a transgender daughter, age 10. This parent is a public speaker, and is preparing some talks on transgender children and their care, relating in particular how all but one endocrinologist is willing to treat her child, how her religious school kicked her child out. Apparently, some parenting blogs have caught on to the news, and refer to her child as a "freak" or an "it", one showed a picture of a rolled up belt with the caption "here's what I'd use to treat my child", another blog used the same caption juxtaposed with an image of a gun.

Her daughter is now 11 and is on hormone blockers. She went to dozens of endocrinologists and simply could not find anyone who treat her. Finally, she found someone willing to help. The doc explained that he has been many kids of gender issues, and 10 year old child is one of the most obvious cases of gender identity disorder he'd ever seen. Following some on-site psychological assessments, a letter from a gender counselor, the doc consented to treating the girl and things have been going well ever since.

On the topic of human sexuality in general, it strikes me that we're just now starting to figure some of this stuff out. And I'm not sure we've figured out these questions to the point where I would put a young person in my care through something so life-changing at a very tender stage in their development.

Its not really "new" science, there is decades of research on transgender issues and children in particular.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Its not really "new" science, there is decades of research on transgender issues and children in particular.

Well perhaps my views are clouded by the fact that the only literature I've read on the topic is a book called 'The boy who was raised as a girl' - about a boy who lost his penis in a botched circumcision, and then became effectively an experiment in the nature vs nurture debate. Was raised as a girl, given hormone therapy etc... and had an extremely traumatic life as a result. IIRC this all took place in the 70's, and was all pretty land-breaking then. I still think of the 70's as pretty 'current' (perhaps betraying my own age here) but it may be my own ignorance to a body of study that is perhaps more robust.

 

[Dessi]

Well perhaps my views are clouded by the fact that the only literature I've read on the topic is a book called 'The boy who was raised as a girl' - about a boy who lost his penis in a botched circumcision, and then became effectively an experiment in the nature vs nurture debate. Was raised as a girl, given hormone therapy etc... and had an extremely traumatic life as a result. IIRC this all took place in the 70's, and was all pretty land-breaking then. I still think of the 70's as pretty 'current' (perhaps betraying my own age here) but it may be my own ignorance to a body of study that is perhaps more robust.

David Reimer. The doc who treated him suppressed information that David rejected his assigned gender. The whole story just gets bizarre after that:

Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements" with David playing the bottom role.[4] As a child, David Reimer painfully recalled having to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks".[4] In another sexual position, Dr. Money forced David to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top.[4] Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections".[4] On at "least one occasion", Dr. Money took a "photograph" of the two children doing these activiites.[4] Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]

For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case", describing apparently successful female gender development, and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. Money wrote: "The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother." Notes by a former student at Money's lab state that during the followup visits, which occurred only once a year, Reimer's parents routinely lied to lab staff about the success of the procedure. The twin brother, Brian, later proved to be schizophrenic.

The poor guy killed himself in 2004.

Reimer was not transgender, his dysphoria resulted from being forcibly cross-dressed against his will without concern for how he actually identified -- incidentally this is what transgender children experience when they're compelled to behave as members of their gender assigned as birth.

After his book came out, Reimer's case showed that gender identity is innate and immutable. This fact essentially confirms what transgender advocates have been saying for decades, it gives credibility to treating kids early instead of trying to "fix" them.

 

[Antiquehunter]

After his book came out, Reimer's case showed that gender identity is innate and immutable. This fact essentially confirms what transgender advocates have been saying for decades, it gives credibility to treating kids early instead of trying to "fix" them.

I broadly concur - I think what I have trouble wrapping my head around, is- Is it clearly possible to KNOW at such a young age that there is an issue around gender identity, with sufficient confidence that it is 'safe' to start a somewhat invasive therapy such as hormones, leading to what presumably would be a later-in-life surgical intervention?

Thinking to my own childhoood (I don't have kids, and rarely interact with them - unless I'm at a friend's house who happens to have kids) - I don't ever recall behaving in a 'girly' fashion. I'm relatively confident that when playing with other kids, at some point I probably played with Barbies when with a little girl, or perhaps even played dressup and role-played a 'girl' role. I probably would've done this and thought nothing of it, and it also probably wouldn't have been my most obvious 'play' choice. (I would probably have chosen to play by myself, on a computer, to be frank.) I would hate to think that an adult could see me playing with some girls, where dolls were involved, and assuming I was having issues identifying with my gender.

If nothing else, the Reimer case proves how crucial to lifelong happiness getting this gender thing 'right' actually is. The risks to screwing it up such as in his case, are horrific.

 

[quadraginta]

I broadly concur - I think what I have trouble wrapping my head around, is- Is it clearly possible to KNOW at such a young age that there is an issue around gender identity, with sufficient confidence that it is 'safe' to start a somewhat invasive therapy such as hormones, leading to what presumably would be a later-in-life surgical intervention?

<snip>

If I re-wrote the above like this ...

"Is it clearly possible to KNOW at the onset of puberty that there is an issue around gender identity, with sufficient confidence that it is 'safe' to start a reversible therapy such as hormones ...?"
​

... and pointed out that such a course would only be taken after the patient had exhibited a clear and consistent pattern of Gender Identity Disorder for many years.

Would it still sound as ominous to you?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Anecdote:

When my son was about 6 his sister, who is two years older, discovered the color pink and everything that goes with it. Suddenly everything was frills and lace (she has since recovered and is working hard on her preteen attitude). My son wanted to do everything his sister did, dresses, jewelry, nail polish, etc. My wife and I shrugged and indulged him, determined to support our kids in whatever life choices they would make.

He's now 10, enjoys looking at blood and bug parts under his microscope, and thinks girls are icky.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

TG kids can be surprisingly adamant. I almost always hear the parents saying they were surprised by the kids insistence and were struggling about "encouraging" them. For post-puberty cases the doctors are extremely strict, just imagine what it is like when the doctors are responsible for kids.

Hormone blockers are a wonderful idea to me, I am honestly confused why people feel so scared by them.

 

[Antiquehunter]

If I re-wrote the above like this ...

"Is it clearly possible to KNOW at the onset of puberty that there is an issue around gender identity, with sufficient confidence that it is 'safe' to start a reversible therapy such as hormones ...?"
​

... and pointed out that such a course would only be taken after the patient had exhibited a clear and consistent pattern of Gender Identity Disorder for many years.

Would it still sound as ominous to you?

Well yes, that does sound much more palatable to me, although I'm not sure that hormone treatments are truly reversible - I don't know enough about them. Presumably hormonal shifts are accompanied with psychological changes etc... so one is still somewhat playing with fire here, I would expect. Certainly willing to be shown otherwise.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Hormone blockers are a wonderful idea to me, I am honestly confused why people feel so scared by them.

To delay onset of puberty to allow a child more time to 'figure out' what is going on with themselves, before pubertal changes etc... take effect makes logical sense to me. Hormone therapy administered pre-puberty, and/or surgical intervention as in the case of the Reimer incident I am much more concerned about.

Again, I'll state that I know very little about the topic, I was just made curious when watching the news this morning, and I've read one book on the matter. Perhaps the butchery that happened to Reimer no longer happens, and things are handled much more cautiously & sensibly now.

 

[epepke]

Oh, boy, are you going to get it!

 

[quadraginta]

To delay onset of puberty to allow a child more time to 'figure out' what is going on with themselves, before pubertal changes etc... take effect makes logical sense to me. Hormone therapy administered pre-puberty,

<snip>

Giving hormone blockers to a pre-pubescent patient is "hormone therapy". I think you might be confusing that with "hormone replacement therapy", another form of hormone therapy which is used with more mature TG candidates who are determined to continue farther with gender reassignment.

 

[Antiquehunter]

@Dessi - well, I watched the video. Certainly, Kim interviews as a very poised & very pretty young woman. Presumably one advantage of the early hormones & intervention will mean that some of the more typical traits that can be difficult to transition (adams apple, size & structure of hands etc...) won't ever pose a problem, so hooray for that.

What I still find troubling however, is that Kim has lost full use of her genitals, before she ever really had an opportunity to take them for much of a test drive. And that, even with all the psychological opinionating, and no matter how sure young Kim is and was, really is troubling for me. My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that for m to f transsexuals, there is limited sexual pleasure derived from pentrative intercourse with the reconstructed genitals. And, for this young person to have undergone such a dramatic and unreversible process - no matter how 'right' it felt at the time, I find troubling.

Now I presume that since Kim is dubbed as the world's youngest, then presumably we'll be able to monitor her progress (and others who have similarly undergone this intervention early in life) and see how they're doing at 25, at 35, at 45 etc... And maybe, we'll come to see this as absolutely the right way to go. But it seems like a HUGE gamble to be taking.

As a gay man myself, I find it awkward that I'm so uncomfortable with transgendered issues, and also that I find myself perhaps on the more conservative side of the spectrum than usual.