Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[caveman1917]

Thread continued from here. You may quote from that thread freely in this one.

Posted By: Loss Leader

Sounds like I was right: they just didn't want the black folk to integrate. Good old racism.

Yes, as anyone can read the reference states "The race element was emphasized in order that property-holders could get the support of the majority of white laborers and make it more possible to exploit Negro labor because they just didn't want the black folk to integrate."

Racism exists, by the way, before you ask.

Obviously. The question is why it exists. According to you racism exists because racism exists, according to me it exists because it served a particular purpose for the ruling class.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Guns, germs, and steel. There's the "why."

 

[Belz...]

Yes, as anyone can read the reference states "The race element was emphasized in order that property-holders could get the support of the majority of white laborers and make it more possible to exploit Negro labor because they just didn't want the black folk to integrate."

It's pretty surprising that, in your search for root causes, you stop at an arbitrary point in time without going back to find its root causes.

I suggest you read your quote again.

According to you racism exists because racism exists

Strawman. I never said or implied this. I used racism as a root cause of the events we observe. Racism's as old as the world. If you're looking for a cause of that, then I suggest you look up tribalism.

according to me it exists because it served a particular purpose for the ruling class.

You think the ruling class invented racism? Get real.

 

[caveman1917]

It's pretty surprising that, in your search for root causes, you stop at an arbitrary point in time without going back to find its root causes.

What makes you think I haven't? Africans weren't seen as inferior during the first centuries of exploration and colonialism, it was only with the advent of the slave trade that this changed.

Strawman. I never said or implied this. I used racism as a root cause of the events we observe. Racism's as old as the world. If you're looking for a cause of that, then I suggest you look up tribalism.

A "root cause" that only appeared after the economic basis for it (Trans-Atlantic slave trade) was created is not a root cause, it's an effect and not a cause.

You think the ruling class invented racism? Get real.

Invented it? No. Emphasized and promoted it to the extent that it lead to a structuring of society along racial lines? Yes.

 

[Belz...]

Africans weren't seen as inferior during the first centuries of exploration and colonialism, it was only with the advent of the slave trade that this changed.

Maybe but that predates your proposed root cause of racism.

Invented it? No. Emphasized and promoted it to the extent that it lead to a structuring of society along racial lines? Yes.

So it already existed, then.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Only two of which are sexes, hence sex is a binary.

But the question of what sex is someone has three answers. Hence not binary.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What makes you think I haven't? Africans weren't seen as inferior during the first centuries of exploration and colonialism, it was only with the advent of the slave trade that this changed.

Got any actual evidence for that?

 

[caveman1917]

Maybe but that predates your proposed root cause of racism.

So it already existed, then.

I was giving a root cause for institutional racism in US society (this discussion started off with the Jim Crow segregation). Racist sentiments themselves can be even be traced back to Aristotle. I'm sure you can find some people who hold discriminatory beliefs about red-heads but that doesn't mean that we live in a hairist society, society isn't structured so as to have one group of people hold institutional power over another group based on hair colour.

Wage labour already existed in Ancient Egypt yet that doesn't mean that Ancient Egypt was a capitalist society (ie a society whose economics is structured around wage labour).

 

[Darat]

How would you expect your "real world solutions" to make racism go away if you refuse to analyze where racism comes from?

We aren't meant to be discussing racism in this thread...

 

[caveman1917]

Got any actual evidence for that?

The ADL's page on "What is Racism?" notes this:

This belief was not "automatic": that is, Africans were not originally considered inferior. When Portuguese sailors first explored Africa in the 15th and 16th centuries, they came upon empires and cities as advanced as their own, and they considered Africans to be serious rivals. Over time, though, as African civilizations failed to match the technological advances of Europe, and the major European powers began to plunder the continent and forcibly remove its inhabitants to work as slave laborers in new colonies across the Atlantic, Africans came to be seen as a deficient "species," as "savages." To an important extent, this view was necessary to justify the slave trade at a time when Western culture had begun to promote individual rights and human equality. The willingness of some Africans to sell other Africans to European slave traders also led to claims of savagery, based on the false belief that the "dark people" were all kinsmen, all part of one society — as opposed to many different, sometimes warring nations.

The important point is that societies don't structure themselves along certain lines for no reason, things like institutional racism don't just arbitrarily fall out of the sky. First comes the power differential (in this case the technological advantage of European societies vs African societies) and the material basis for exploitation (slave labour in this case) and then comes the ideological structuring of society so as to justify said things (the introduction of institutional racism since skin colour happened to be what distinguished Africans from Europeans, as opposed to say hair colour or handedness). If Africans were distinguished from Europeans not by skin colour but by hair colour we'd now be living in a hairist society rather than a racist one.

 

[JoeMorgue]

We aren't meant to be discussing racism in this thread...

Wait you mean we didn't solve racism by keeping separate white and black bathrooms and just letting everyone "identify" was white or black, therefore solving the problem?

 

[caveman1917]

But the question of what sex is someone has three answers. Hence not binary.

If you take a course you can either get a passing grade or a non-passing grade. Grades are binary. The fact that the answer to "what was your grade" can also be "I didn't take that class so I don't have a grade" doesn't change that. Just like the fact that the response to "what is your sex" can also be "I don't have a sex" doesn't change sex from being binary.

 

[theprestige]

We aren't meant to be discussing racism in this thread...

Is this posted as a mod or as a member?

I think that when discussing a question of discrimination and segregation, it can be useful to compare and contrast with other similar questions and how they've been answered over time.

---

Not, mind you, that it would be useful to try to prove something by analogy between the two things being compared. But as food for thought and perhaps some insights into the kinds of answers that might apply, such comparisons can be very useful.

---

So I disagree with Darat. We are meant to be discussing racism in this thread. In the sense that we're meant to be discussing whatever comparisons we think might inform the central questions of the thread.

If you don't think the discussion of racism is relevant, the appropriate responses are to argue against the relevance of racism, or just ignore it as irrelevant to the discussion you're having.

---

And of course if you're a mod or admin, it probably makes sense to be much more clear about what you mean when you jump into a thread and start declaring stuff off topic.

 

[Belz...]

I was giving a root cause for institutional racism in US society (this discussion started off with the Jim Crow segregation).

Right, right.

But regardless, Jim Crow laws sprung up in the south where racism were the strongest and where reaction to reconstruction was most negative. This thing you speak of would only work if the racism already existed. It didn't engender it, as you stated. Furthermore, those laws certainly in a lot of cases appeared regardless of what those "elites" did.

 

[Myriad]

Really? So you've not seen any of my posts on the relation between hormones and behaviour, on anthropological evidence of cultures with entirely different structures than our own in the relevant aspects of this thread, or indeed even on testing specific hypotheses made in this thread such as ThePrestige's hypothesis that transgenderism is the result of the social imposition of strict gender roles which can be tested by cross-cultural comparisons of Native American tribes? How could you possibly have missed all that?

I see you've skipped question 3 and gone on with the pot-stirring instead.

I didn't miss all that, but I did miss (and I'm still missing) any connection you're making between those various relations and hypotheses and any actual position on the practical matters of public policy regarding claimed gender identity and places of public accommodation that are under discussion in this thread.

Congratulations on keeping the distraction and pot-stirring going for another two pages, though.

 

[Belz...]

I thought it was shaken, not stirred.

 

[Butter!]

So they'd just go outside of their workplace on the street, find a bush and urinate there? I doubt that.

I would guess they'd be more likely to hold it.

I don't think caveman is wrong about that part. This source seems to agree. https://www.livescience.com/54692-why-bathrooms-are-gender-segregated.html

From the article:

But for the most part, public facilities in Western nations were male-only until the Victorian era, which meant women had to improvise. If they had to be out and about longer than they could hold their bladders, women in the Victorian era would urinate over a gutter (long Victorian skirts allowed for some privacy). Some would even carry a small personal device called a urinette that they could use discretely under their skirts and then pour out, Cavanagh said. Strangely, these urinettes were sometimes shaped like the male genitals

This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This "urinary leash" remains a problem in some developing nations, said Harvey Molotch, a sociologist at New York University and co-editor of "Toilet: The Public Restroom and the Politics of Sharing" (New York University Press, 2010). Women in India today, for example, often have to avoid eating or drinking too much if they have to be out in public, because there is no place for them to go, Molotch told Live Science.

As for why people get more fired up about racial prejudices than hair color or handedness prejudices, I assume that's because different races usually come with different cultures. People who are racist tend to think that their own culture is the better one or the right one. So they hate people for having an inferior culture. There's more to it than just skin color and appearance, although it is still obviously very wrong.

Additionally, left-handedness prejudice was absolutely a thing until fairly recently. My own grandmother had her knuckles constantly beaten as a student until she learned to use her right hand. Left-handed people were called "sinister."

Redheads catch a lot of crap too (especially since South Park did that stupid "ginger kids" episode and launched a thousand bullies' arsenals), and how many "dumb blonde" jokes have y'all heard in your lifetimes?

The consequences of racism tend to be much more serious than these other types of prejudices, but my point is simply that people will look for absolutely any piddling little reason to hate each other. People are just combative and dickish. I don't think any grand conspiracy is needed. It may indeed benefit certain powerful people to have lower "classes" squabbling amongst themselves, but I don't think those powerful people have to orchestrate said squabbling. People handle that themselves, just fine.

 

[Belz...]

I would guess they'd be more likely to hold it.

For a whole day? That sounds fantastically uncomfortable. And irresponsible.

 

[Butter!]

For a whole day? That sounds fantastically uncomfortable. And irresponsible.

Well, read on. Gutters are mentioned, personal devices called urinettes. I'm not saying it's good or healthy, I'm just saying it's true.

 

[Belz...]

Well, read on. Gutters are mentioned, personal devices called urinettes. I'm not saying it's good or healthy, I'm just saying it's true.

I read it. Still fantastically stupid. You'd think employers would provide at least a minimum for their employees, male or female.