Today in Gaza...

zenith-nadir

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Today in Gaza...

  • A large explosion ripped through a house in a northern Gaza town on Monday, killing one man and wounding two other people, hospital officials said. There were no details on the cause of the blast in Jebaliya. But relatives said the dead man was a member of Hamas.
  • Violence between warring Palestinian factions claimed the lives of one gunmen and four bystanders late Sunday...
  • In the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis forces loyal to Fatah fought the new Hamas militia, security officials said. A 20-year-old woman, eight months pregnant, was killed when masked gunmen opened fire on a car carrying her and two Hamas operatives, who were wounded. One later died.
  • Gunmen from the two rival Palestinian factions battled in Gaza City, security officials said, and three bystanders were killed. Relatives of the dead gathered at the hospital where the bodies were taken and shouted anti-Hamas slogans.
  • Two Arab Bank branches in Gaza City closed after coming under siege from angry Palestinian civil servants...
( source 1, source 2)

For almost a year now Gaza has been 100% Jew Free™ and surprize, Palestinians are shooting it out with other Palestinians on the streets, attacking Palestinian banks, blowing up in their own Palestinian homes in "work accidents"...

Eventually the true source of Palestinian violence and terror will be recognized by the useful idiots and liberals around the globe....it's the Palestinians themselves.
 
Are they the only people in the world that are like this? Or did Israel just get really unlucky and land on top of the only ones?
 
The Fool said:
Are they the only people in the world that are like this? Or did Israel just get really unlucky and land on top of the only ones?
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A worthy question. I wonder whether part of it is in our perception - Israel/the Palestinian Territories is such a journalist-dense area, and it may be that similar events elesewhere simply don't get the coverage. Although Iraq does spring to mind.

My guess is it's a combination of factors, prominent among which is that the Palestinians seem(ed) so close, and they repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

I think it was Abba Eban who said (about the Arab states in general, but I suppose one could apply it to the Palestinians specifically), "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Me, I'm just sitting here, hoping the neighbors get this mess sorted out soon...
 
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David Swidler said:
A worthy question. I wonder whether part of it is in our perception - Israel/the Palestinian Territories is such a journalist-dense area, and it may be that similar events elesewhere simply don't get the coverage. Although Iraq does spring to mind.

My guess is it's a combination of factors, prominent among which is that the Palestinians seem(ed) so close, and they repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

I think it was Abba Eban who said (about the Arab states in general, but I suppose one could apply it to the Palestinians specifically), "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Me, I'm just sitting here, hoping the neighbors get this mess sorted out soon...
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well David, I don't envy your close proximity to this violence.

What concerns me the most is that the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.

The saddest thing to me is that given a change of past circumstances, a change of external influences and the levels of international support for the different people that all lay claim to this land could quite easily have resulted in a powerfull Palestinian Arab nation and a number of semi autonomous Jewish enclaves....and people posting to forums like this that Israel could have been founded if only they had taken what was offered... The bits of that silly partition map that were allocated to the future state of Israel.
 
Meanwhile in East Timor, the Solomon Islands and New Guinea, similar scenes, not a Palestinian in sight, or Israelis, but a common history of a painful transition into the modern world via colonialism.
 
This thread has the same flavor OP as "Welcome to Hamastine" --- but The Fool has brought up some points that drive us in a slightly different direction:

#1 --
The saddest thing to me is that given a change of past circumstances, a change of external influences and the levels of international support for the different people that all lay claim to this land could quite easily have resulted in a powerfull Palestinian Arab nation and a number of semi autonomous Jewish enclaves....and people posting to forums like this that Israel could have been founded if only they had taken what was offered... The bits of that silly partition map that were allocated to the future state of Israel.
Click to expand...

Tomorrow, TF, you may get your wish.
The Palestinians are to be offered a 'referendum' that essentially declares their support for a return to the status-quo-ante of 1949.
Which Israel will be demanded to implement 100%, returning to the "Auschwitz Enclaves" (that, too, coined by Abba Eban).
http://www.acpr.org.il/publications/policy-papers/pp073-xs.html

#2 --
What concerns me the most is that the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.
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Au contraire! The 'theory' which Z-N posts in the OP says the source of the problem of brutality and mayhem is not from the "Israeli Occupation" but rather, is a by-product of a well-documented Arab mind-set that violence is a good way to solve anything.

Removing that misguided educational and social basis would go a long way to reversing the underlying proclivities. Evidence of that being the proper process (and the preferred outcome according to Israeli policy) may be found by looking at the million-plus Palestinians who are part of the Israeli society (((( please, for the love of ed, TF, don't focus again on their 'worth' as citizens!))))). AFAIK, the Israeli-Arabs aren't running around shooting & bombing.

#3 --
Or did Israel just get really unlucky and land on top of the only ones?
Click to expand...

Israel didn't drop out of the sky unwelcome into the midst of a teeming Arab Nation of Palestine. (see: Faisal-Frankfurter letters March 1919)
The Jews who organized the State of Israel established themselves gradually by legal dealings with the owners/administrators of the lands. That process was largely looked upon as illegitimate, and millions of jews were kept OUT, resulting in their deaths in Europe, instead of millions of souls being provided the means and the permission to escape the holocaust and come to their freedom in Mandate Palestine.
That, after all, is "The saddest thing ... given a change of past circumstances"
 
webfusion said:
AFAIK, the Israeli-Arabs aren't running around shooting & bombing.
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why not? to quote a wise man...."Eventually the true source of Palestinian violence and terror will be recognized by the useful idiots and liberals around the globe....it's the Palestinians themselves."
 
The Fool said:
What concerns me the most is that the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.
Click to expand...


I don't believe I've ever seen ZN express that theory. If someone told a whopper like that about me, I'd be pretty upset at such slimey debate tactics.

Do you have references? Can you back up this slander?
 
The Fool said:
What concerns me the most is that the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.
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Notice JREFers that nowhere do I say "the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area." That is a 100% fabrication by the fool.

Mycroft said:
I don't believe I've ever seen ZN express that theory. If someone told a whopper like that about me, I'd be pretty upset at such slimey debate tactics.

Do you have references? Can you back up this slander?
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You have to understand Mycroft is the the fool has no honest intelligent rebuttal to explain why Palestinians are shooting it out with other Palestinians on the streets of Gaza, he has no honest intelligent rebuttal to explain why Palestinians are attacking Palestinian banks in Gaza or blowing up in their own Palestinian homes in Gaza. So he takes the low road and fabricates a wopper of a strawman;

The Fool said:
....the logical progression of ZNs theory that this violence is inherent in palestinians is that the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area.
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:dl:


{edited to add}

Jun. 5, 2006 14:44

Hamas militants stormed a Palestine TV broadcast facility in the southern Gaza Strip, kicking workers out of the building and destroying equipment in a shooting rampage, employees said.

In Khan Yunis about 15 gunmen fired in the air as they entered the broadcasting station. "You are collaborators. You are biased. You are dirty people," they screamed, according to the workers.

The gunmen expelled employees from the building, beat up a cameraman and fired their weapons at cameras and other equipment, the witnesses said.
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Just more "resistance to the occupation"... ;)
 
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zenith-nadir said:
Notice JREFers that nowhere do I say "the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area." That is a 100% fabrication by the fool.
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and also notice that I didn't say you did.....I'm sure its just a case that you have little or no understanding of the consequences of your position.

but anyway...troll on ZN. I'm not interested.
 
Ignoring the arguing past each other problem... What do we believe is the cause of violence in Gaza?

It seems two theories are shot down here namely:

1) it's in Arab nature for those residing in Palistine/Israel, and Jewish occupation.

and

2) Jewish occupation

because

1) Israeli Arabs act like responsible citizens

and

2) There isn't a Jewish occupation of Gaza

So... theories?

Poverty? Surely there are places of equal or greater poverty with less violence.

Corruption? Ditto.

Upbringing? This might be the most compelling to me.

Aaron
 
zenith-nadir said:
Notice JREFers that nowhere do I say "the only way to eliminate it from the area would be the elimination of... or removal of palestinians from the area." That is a 100% fabrication by the fool.

You have to understand Mycroft is the the fool has no honest intelligent rebuttal to explain why Palestinians are shooting it out with other Palestinians on the streets of Gaza, he has no honest intelligent rebuttal to explain why Palestinians are attacking Palestinian banks in Gaza or blowing up in their own Palestinian homes in Gaza. So he takes the low road and fabricates a wopper of a strawman;



:dl:


{edited to add}



Just more "resistance to the occupation"... ;)
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the occupation has so corrupted their society, it is now totally dysfunctional? They seemed to be stable and sane enough (in average human terms) before the whole Israel business started.

Australian aboriginals have changed from a stable society that lasted 40,000 years, to one of utter dysfunction in many areas.
 
Stability in the late 1800's?

They seemed to be stable and sane enough (in average human terms) before the whole Israel business started.
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When did the whole israel business start?

1890's

Yeah, to be sure, "they" had no shortage of marauders, raiders, fedayyin, pirates, and assassins even then.
Check your history.
 
Who's 'we' referring to?

I take this to mean you do agree "they" weren't so stable and sane?
To be sure, they were notably and evidently quite violently inclined; pillaging and plundering and brutalizing across the Fertile Crescent, right through the entire period when "The Whole Israel Business" started.
 
a_unique_person said:
ZN commits the repeated error of attributing this issue to israel being Jewish. That is not the issue. It is the occupation. Look up East Timor for another society that is breaking down.
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Except the violence precedes any occupation.
 
The Fool said:
and also notice that I didn't say you did.....I'm sure its just a case that you have little or no understanding of the consequences of your position.

but anyway...troll on ZN. I'm not interested.
Click to expand...

The consequences of recognizing that Palestinians are the source of Palestinian violence is also recognizing that it's up to Palestinians, not Israelis, to stop it.

Further, it's also worth noting that saying the source of Palestinian violence (true or otherwise) is Palestinians is not at all the same as saying "this violence is inherent in Palestinians." That's your straw-man completely, ZN never said it.
 
Except the violence precedes any occupation...

a_u_p goes off the deep end:That is not the issue. It is the occupation.
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Absolutely, without a doubt, the most incredibly false statement on the JREF forums today.

Nominated.
 
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