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Time on Mars

CptColumbo

Just One More Question
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I have a question for the scientists out there, but please keep in mind I have a degree in the arts, not math or any of the sciences.

From what I understand, time is relative to speed. For example: the faster you go the slower time is for you. Now if I remember right (according to that song by Monty Python) we orbit the sun at 19 miles per second (so it's reckoned). If we ever get to another planet, such as Mars, will time move differently, and will it be to such an extent it would be significant.
 
19 miles per second sounds fast, but the speed of light is over 186,000 miles per second, and what determines the amount of time dilation is how fast you're going compared to the speed of light. So the effect exists, but it's not very big.

Anyway, regardless of how fast you're going, you don't notice anything funny happening to you; it's everyone else's clocks which appear to you to run slowly, because, relative to you, they're the one's who are moving. Similarly, they see your clock running slowly, because relative to them, you're moving.

It might seem impossible that each of you will see the other's clock running slowly---one is tempted to ask, "well, which clock is really slow?"---but that's how it is. Neither one is the one that's really slow, just as neither one is the one that's really moving. Motion is relative.
 
CptColumbo said:
From what I understand, time is relative to speed. For example: the faster you go the slower time is for you. Now if I remember right (according to that song by Monty Python) we orbit the sun at 19 miles per second (so it's reckoned). If we ever get to another planet, such as Mars, will time move differently, and will it be to such an extent it would be significant.

There would be a difference, but it's not just due to speed. Time also moves slower depending on the gravitational potential: the closer you are to a massive body, the slower it goes. Earth is more massive than mars, so this would also slow time. I'm not sure which effect would dominate, though they would both be in the same direction (making time move "slower" on earth).

As for how much of a difference, I don't have any numbers for you. It would probably be measurable with atomic clocks (which have really amazing accuracy), but I'd guess it would be less than a second per year difference, possible much less. So not noticeable from a human perspective.
 
Re: Re: Time on Mars

Ziggurat said:
As for how much of a difference, I don't have any numbers for you. It would probably be measurable with atomic clocks (which have really amazing accuracy), but I'd guess it would be less than a second per year difference, possible much less. So not noticeable from a human perspective.

One other nice thing (since we're speaking of Mars). It has a 'day' of almost exactly 24 hours -- just like here on Earth. So living on Mars would require little (if any) daytime adjustment.
 
69dodge said:
19 miles per second sounds fast, but the speed of light is over 186,000 miles per second, and what determines the amount of time dilation is how fast you're going compared to the speed of light. So the effect exists, but it's not very big.

Anyway, regardless of how fast you're going, you don't notice anything funny happening to you; it's everyone else's clocks which appear to you to run slowly, because, relative to you, they're the one's who are moving. Similarly, they see your clock running slowly, because relative to them, you're moving.

It might seem impossible that each of you will see the other's clock running slowly---one is tempted to ask, "well, which clock is really slow?"---but that's how it is. Neither one is the one that's really slow, just as neither one is the one that's really moving. Motion is relative.

Is it true that both parties see the others clocks running slowly? If so there's something I don't understand. Suppose you have twins aged 20 and one stays on earth while the other goes off in a spaceship and travels near the speed of light. Twenty years pass (on earth) and EarthTwin is now 40 years old. SpaceTwin returns to earth and is just 30 years old by his/her own reckoning and the reason for the difference is that he/she has been traveling near the speed of light, unlike EarthTwin.

Now, suppose that instead of flying around in space near the speed of light, SpaceTwin travels in orbit around the earth, but still near the speed of light. EarthTwin and SpaceTwin can observe each other during this time. Do they both seem to be moving slowly? Because after 20 years (as measured on earth) EarthTwin is 40 years old and SpaceTwin is 30 years old so while it makes sense that EarthTwin should see SpaceTwin moving slowly, it seems like SpaceTwin should see EarthTwin moving quickly.
 
Number Six said:
Is it true that both parties see the others clocks running slowly? If so there's something I don't understand. Suppose you have twins aged 20 and one stays on earth while the other goes off in a spaceship and travels near the speed of light. Twenty years pass (on earth) and EarthTwin is now 40 years old. SpaceTwin returns to earth and is just 30 years old by his/her own reckoning and the reason for the difference is that he/she has been traveling near the speed of light, unlike EarthTwin.

Not quite. Remember that relativity theory says that if you are travelling at close to the speed of light as I measure it, then I am travelling at close to the speed of light as you measure it. Both twins are actually moving "close to the speed of light" from an appropriate perspective. The asymmetry is that the twin who leaves and then comes back has to accelerate, first in order to leave, and then in order to come back. The stay-at-home will not experience any acceleration. The accelerated twin will be the one who is younger when they meet again.


Now, suppose that instead of flying around in space near the speed of light, SpaceTwin travels in orbit around the earth, but still near the speed of light. EarthTwin and SpaceTwin can observe each other during this time. Do they both seem to be moving slowly? Because after 20 years (as measured on earth) EarthTwin is 40 years old and SpaceTwin is 30 years old so while it makes sense that EarthTwin should see SpaceTwin moving slowly, it seems like SpaceTwin should see EarthTwin moving quickly.

Again, SpaceTwin is the one who is experiencing all the acceleration, first to get himself up to the speed of light (and in order to stay in orbit at that speed), and then to get himself down to 'rest' again. SpaceTwin will be experiencing continuous acceleration, and so will be continuously observing time to be moving more slowly.
 
Suppose EarthTwin and SpaceTwin can observe each other at all times. And suppose each observes the other moving slowly, as if time is moving more slowly for the other. So each thinks time is moving normally for himself and time is moving slowly for the other.

And yet when SpaceTwin lands back on earth, EarthTwin has aged 20 years compared to just 10 for SpaceTwin. If SpaceTwin can observe EarthTwin constantly as SpaceTwin flies through space then it doesn't make sense that he observes time passing slowly for EarthTwin the entire time and then when he lands back on earth suddenly 10 more years have passed for EarthTwin than for SpaceTwin. I must be missing something.

Maybe it's this...when SpaceTwin is moving at constant speed then EarthTwin seems to be moving slowly to him but when SpaceTwin is accelerating to his high speed or is decelerating from his his speed, then perhaps at those times EarthTwin seems to be moving more quickly. That's just a guess rather than an asseration. Time moves more slowly under gravitational fields and if you're accelerating or decelerating then you're creating graviational fields (or sort of...you know what I mean).
 
Number Six said:


Maybe it's this...when SpaceTwin is moving at constant speed then EarthTwin seems to be moving slowly to him but when SpaceTwin is accelerating to his high speed or is decelerating from his his speed, then perhaps at those times EarthTwin seems to be moving more quickly.

Yup. More or less exactly.
 
Number Six said:
Suppose EarthTwin and SpaceTwin can observe each other at all times. And suppose each observes the other moving slowly, as if time is moving more slowly for the other. So each thinks time is moving normally for himself and time is moving slowly for the other.

First off, we need to be clear about terminology. In relativity, the term "observe" has a very specific meaning, but it's not completely intuitive. What you "observe" and what you "see" are NOT the same thing. In fact, understanding that distinction is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for beginners in relativity. Here's an example from every-day life to illuminate the difference:

Let's say you're standing outside, watching a jet fly overhead. You hear the roar of the engines, but it sounds like it's coming from behind the jet, because the jet is flying at a significant fraction of the speed of sound. You "hear" sound coming from behind the jet. But if you know how far away the jet is, how fast it's moving, and how fast sound moves, you can deduce that the sound is not actually coming from behind the jet, but from the jet itself. Thus, you "observe" that the jet is emiting the sound, but you "hear" the sound coming from a point behind the jet. Similarly in relativity, what you "see" and what you "observe" are not the same thing.

So, with that out of the way, let's get to your question:

And yet when SpaceTwin lands back on earth, EarthTwin has aged 20 years compared to just 10 for SpaceTwin. If SpaceTwin can observe EarthTwin constantly as SpaceTwin flies through space then it doesn't make sense that he observes time passing slowly for EarthTwin the entire time and then when he lands back on earth suddenly 10 more years have passed for EarthTwin than for SpaceTwin. I must be missing something.

Yes, you are missing something. While traveling, both twins "observe" the other twin's clock slowed down, regardless of direction. But what they "see" does depend on which direction they're going. If the other twin is going away from you, you see that twin's clock slowed down even more from doppler shift, but if it's heading towards you, you "see" it moving faster.

During the acceleration, the traveling twin "sees" the earthbound twin's clock speed up continuously. Nothing particularly weird here. But something very weird does happen to what the traveling twin "observes". When you shift to a reference frame that's moving with respect to your original reference frame, your time axis (the line that marks out a single location at all times) gets tilted. This is easy to understand, and that's what you get in classical physics too. The tricky part is, your space axis (which marks out all points in space at the same moment of time) also tilts. So during the acceleration, the traveling twin's space axis is tilting, so where it intersects the time-line trajectory of the earth-bound twin changes a LOT during the acceleration process. What the traveling twin "observes", then, is a very large passage of time for the earth-bound twin during that acceleration period. Note again, though, that this isn't what the traveling twin "sees", which isn't really very remarkable at all. This huge observed passage of time is a result of the fact that during the acceleration, the traveling twin's reference frame is NOT an inertial reference frame - while physics makes no distinction between different inertial reference frames, there IS a difference between inertial reference frames and non-inertial reference frames.

Now if we go back and think about what each twin sees, not what they observe, we can still figure out that the traveling twin will have experienced less time. For the traveling twin, the outbound and return journeys take the same amount of time, so for half that time, the earthbound twin's clock looks like it's running slow, and half that time it looks like it's running fast. But the earthbound twin doesn't see the outbound twin arrive at the turnaround point until sometime after he actually got there (since the light signal takes time to return), so the earthbound twin "sees" the traveling twin's clock running slow for MORE than half the trip, and running fast for LESS than half the trip. The asymmetry is again due to the fact that it's the traveling twin that accelerates.
 
Number Six said:
Is it true that both parties see the others clocks running slowly?

Yes.

Now, suppose that instead of flying around in space near the speed of light, SpaceTwin travels in orbit around the earth, but still near the speed of light. EarthTwin and SpaceTwin can observe each other during this time. Do they both seem to be moving slowly? Because after 20 years (as measured on earth) EarthTwin is 40 years old and SpaceTwin is 30 years old so while it makes sense that EarthTwin should see SpaceTwin moving slowly, it seems like SpaceTwin should see EarthTwin moving quickly. [/B]

SpaceTwin is constantly being accelrated toward EarthTwin. When you are accelerated, clocks "above" you (in the direction of acceleration) will appear to run faster. So SpaceTwin would not see EarthTwin's clock as going more slowly, but rather faster.

It's quite simple, really. The clock on Earth is going "ping...ping...ping...ping." But the SpaceTwin is constantly accelerating toward the pings, so he will see them as going "pingpingpingping."
 
Re: Re: Re: Time on Mars

Just thinking said:
One other nice thing (since we're speaking of Mars). It has a 'day' of almost exactly 24 hours -- just like here on Earth. So living on Mars would require little (if any) daytime adjustment.

Not quite.

The people operating the rovers on Mars actually wear custom watches that show Mars time, since they work when the sun is shining on their rover. Their workday starts 37 minutes later every day, giving them a perpetual jetlag. However, it would probably work out fine if they lived on Mars, so they wouldn't have to relate to the things that have to happen when the sun is shining on the USA.

Somewhat related to this:
http://pweb.jps.net/~gangale3/krutein/

Ririon
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Time on Mars

Ririon said:
However, it would probably work out fine if they lived on Mars, so they wouldn't have to relate to the things that have to happen when the sun is shining on the USA.

Ririon

Well, yes -- but I was only referring to those living there, and as you concurred, that would not be a hard adjustment. Of course, synchronizing anything back to a different day (such as back on Earth or out to Mars) would eventually become difficult over time. Similar differences occur even here on Earth with those taking world cruses trying to keep in touch with those at home -- but keeping in synch with others aboard ship is no problem .
 
Personally, I think I would prefer a 24 h 37 min day... <yawn> <streeetch> :)

"They" have done some experiments trying to find the "natural" sleep pattern for humans. If I remember correctly, people living in a cave with no idea what time of day it is will usually adopt a ~25 h day. This is to a large extent triggered by light, so one theory suggests that this is all due to them reading on the bed at night... Anyway, it seems that a martian day would be just fine for a human living there. The radiation and lack of good bars are far greater disadvantages. :)

Ririon
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Time on Mars

Ririon said:

The people operating the rovers on Mars actually wear custom watches that show Mars time, since they work when the sun is shining on their rover. Their workday starts 37 minutes later every day, giving them a perpetual jetlag. However, it would probably work out fine if they lived on Mars, so they wouldn't have to relate to the things that have to happen when the sun is shining on the USA.

Somewhat related to this:
http://pweb.jps.net/~gangale3/krutein/

Ririon

I'd love to be able to sleep in an extra half-hour every day!
 

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