This 'Sicko' film.

[Undesired Walrus]

So, I've watched it, all very well made and all, like most Moore films, but....

Again, Moore gives his old, boring viewpoint that the world owes you a living. With many of those people, if they were horrible ugly people without the charming American accent, I highly doubt Moore would be tugging the heartstrings in the same fashion. That guy dies on his wifes birthday? Tragic, but... what? How is that Bush's fault? Followed up by Adagio for Strings, it mearly shows how Moore thinks the tragic circumstances are not enough to speak for themselves without chucking Barber in your face.

He goes over to the UK and presents it as a utopia of healthcare. As any Brit knows, the healthcare service is a complete mess of red tape, and in need of major reform. Young, poor guys cannot get jobs here, because if they do, they will simply get worse, as they will have to work many, many hours, and regarding their mental health, it sucks. But if they do not get a job they cannot pay for their wellbeing in terms of accommodation, food etc.
Maybe it simply is not possible in the end to get good healthcare. All these bleeding heart wimps like Moore, really need to simply get off their backside and go into social care, and help these people get through the red tape rather than blaming Bush and Nixon and everyone else apart from themselves.

Life is hell.

That said, I really know hardly anything about healthcare or the NHS, just bits and pieces through my job, so feel free to educate me.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Not only that, Michael Moore is fat and ugly to boot ...

Charlie (evil socialistic health care) MOnoxide

 

[Oliver]

That said, I really know hardly anything about healthcare or the NHS, just bits and pieces through my job

You nailed it.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Young, poor guys cannot get jobs here, because if they do, they will simply get worse, as they will have to work many, many hours, and regarding their mental health, it sucks. But if they do not get a job they cannot pay for their wellbeing in terms of accommodation, food etc.

...snip...

Since we have quite a large number of economic migrants coming into this country taking up the very low paid jobs it is strong evidence that the "young poor guys" could get a job. These may not be considered very "good" jobs but they are still jobs paying enough to tempt people to leave their families and travel to a foreign country to get.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

You nailed it.

So, I admit I don't know much about the NHS, nor the benefits of socialised healthcare, and you get into your stupid-rhetoric once again and accuse some of my honest to god views of being backward and oh-so-wrong (Because that is what you are doing isn't it boy?), whilst you start your 50 threads a day about absolutely everything, with NOTHING in them you know ANYTHING about. I admit it, YOU DON'T.

In my job, I know some of the problems of socialised healthcare. But I'm rational enough, something you know sod all about, to admit that I dont know the full story.

What the hell is your problem Oliver?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Wow, great straw.

And what does unemployment have to do with anything? Are you saying that UHC causes more unemployment?

I don't think that any country has perfect healthcare. But the point is, a lot seem to have better than the US.

 

[Katana]

Wow, great straw.

And what does unemployment have to do with anything? Are you saying that UHC causes more unemployment?

I don't think that any country has perfect healthcare. But the point is, a lot seem to have better than the US.

This is not asked to argue but out of genuine curiosity:

Which countries' healthcare systems do you feel are superior to the US's and why?

Again, I really am interested in your answer.

 

[Gurdur]

This is not asked to argue but out of genuine curiosity:
Which countries' healthcare systems do you feel are superior to the US's and why?

I'm not Tsukasa Buddha, but I will say flat out that the German and French systems are superior on all metrics to the USA one, and that the British and even the Australian systems are likely quite superior on most significant metrics to the USA.

Reasons given throughout this compilation thread I made; read both pages, tons of great info.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

And what does unemployment have to do with anything? Are you saying that UHC causes more unemployment?

No. I think it should be blindly obvious that I am not.

For me, for ME, unemployment has a lot to do with this system. Young, poor, homeless kids cannot bear to get jobs because they are not in a mental position to do so. But they need to get jobs because they cannot pay for their way in life, and they do not want to stay on benefits. But once they get a job they know they may get worse. I know this problem, people express the red tape to me often. What I say Tsuk, is that Universal Healthcare does not seem to be solving the problems of beuracracy and difficulties for the poor, mentally ill man. It makes it better than America, sure, and they have access to GP's, but for Moore to make out Britain is some sort of utopia (And yes, he DOES, do not deny it) is simply dishonest in an attempt to push his own agenda.

Quit with the 'straw' comments, engage the argument instead.

 

[skeptifem]

With many of those people, if they were horrible ugly people without the charming American accent

people have always told me american accents are annoying.

i agree with the rest of your post... but that part just sort of caught me off gaurd.

 

[Katana]

I'm not Tsukasa Buddha, but I will say flat out that the German and French systems are superior on all metrics to the USA one, and that the British and even the Australian systems are likely quite superior on most significant metrics to the USA.

Reasons given throughout this compilation thread I made; read both pages, tons of great info.

Thanks, Gurdur!

That IS a lot of info - even more in the links in the thread. It will take a bit of time to look through it, but it looks like good stuff. Looks like a fun board, too.

I'll never disagree that Sweden's healthcare system is top-notch. That I will definitely give you. I'll read on about France and Germany, though.

It's always a question of measures, ain't it?

 

[Katana]

people have always told me american accents are annoying.

i agree with the rest of your post... but that part just sort of caught me off gaurd.

I definitely agree that certain American accents are REALLY annoying - even to most Americans.

Notice how I'm not naming which ones?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

This is not asked to argue but out of genuine curiosity:

Which countries' healthcare systems do you feel are superior to the US's and why?

Again, I really am interested in your answer.

Well, I base it entirely off of statistics. Looking at the data for cost effectiveness and quality of life, I would say: Canada, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Japan. I knocked off the ones that the US beat in any way. And some weren't in all my lists, so there are probably more, these are just the ones I have more data for.

There is one interesting statistic though. In the US we pay the most for doctors, but we also have more than the other countries.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

No. I think it should be blindly obvious that I am not.

For me, for ME, unemployment has a lot to do with this system. Young, poor, homeless kids cannot bear to get jobs because they are not in a mental position to do so. But they need to get jobs because they cannot pay for their way in life, and they do not want to stay on benefits. But once they get a job they know they may get worse. I know this problem, people express the red tape to me often. What I say Tsuk, is that Universal Healthcare does not seem to be solving the problems of beuracracy and difficulties for the poor, mentally ill man. It makes it better than America, sure, and they have access to GP's, but for Moore to make out Britain is some sort of utopia (And yes, he DOES, do not deny it) is simply dishonest in an attempt to push his own agenda.

Quit with the 'straw' comments, engage the argument instead.

Only if you quit with the mean-ness .

I see what you are saying now, thanks.

 

[Segnosaur]

Well, I base it entirely off of statistics. Looking at the data for cost effectiveness and quality of life, I would say: Canada, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Japan. I knocked off the ones that the US beat in any way. And some weren't in all my lists, so there are probably more, these are just the ones I have more data for.

How important do you think cost effectiveness is? Would you rather have a very expensive health care system that can cure any disease, or a really cheap (an universal) one where half the people die early?

As for quality of life... remember, there are a lot of factors that go into measuring that, not all of them health related.

You mentioned Canada as a country with a 'better' system... trouble is, we have extensive waiting lists that they don't have in the U.S. Now, the question about whether Canada's lengthy waiting list makes our system worse than the U.S. system with its higher cost is a philosophical question with no good answer.

 

[cyborg]

In the US we pay the most for doctors, but we also have more than the other countries.

One should hope so considering the population of the US is larger than the countries you mention.

 

[Daylight]

This is not asked to argue but out of genuine curiosity:

Which countries' healthcare systems do you feel are superior to the US's and why?

Again, I really am interested in your answer.

Here in the US I currently have no health care.

So for me, any country that has UHC would be a step up.

 

[Phrost]

Socialized medicine would be a valid safety net if it came along with restrictions that you actually have to be actively minding your own health with sincerity.

But considering that the core tenets behind it (Socialism in general) are founded on the idea that you should expect the rest of the world to help carry the burdens of your life instead of taking responsibility for your own ups and downs, it's just a recipe for disaster. Free health care? Woohooo! Extra french fries and fatty meat for me please! Pass the cigarettes too! Exercise? Pshaw.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

One should hope so considering the population of the US is larger than the countries you mention.

I meant statistically, the ratio for doctor to patient.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

How important do you think cost effectiveness is? Would you rather have a very expensive health care system that can cure any disease, or a really cheap (an universal) one where half the people die early?

As for quality of life... remember, there are a lot of factors that go into measuring that, not all of them health related.

You mentioned Canada as a country with a 'better' system... trouble is, we have extensive waiting lists that they don't have in the U.S. Now, the question about whether Canada's lengthy waiting list makes our system worse than the U.S. system with its higher cost is a philosophical question with no good answer.

Well, statistically, Americans pays more and die earlier.

And yes, Canada was the only Universal Health Care country that didn't beat the US in terms of wait times.