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"There Would not be an israel without America..."

Skeptic

Banned
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Jul 25, 2001
Messages
18,312
I keep hearing this argument. From who? From people who want to claim israel is weak? No. From people who want to claim israel is pathetic? No. From people who want to claim israel is MORALLY inferior: a "parasite", an "annoyance", and so on.

Fine, without the US there will be no israel. And without the police coming to the house to stop an attempted murder, Ms. Jones would be dead now. And without modern medicine, Mr. Smith would be dead by now. What on earth does that have to do with Ms. Jones or Mr. Smith's morality? Can you imagine the defense lawyer in court: "Oh, c'mon, Ms. Jones, how can you claim you're morally better than my client? If the police had not come to save you from him, you'd be dead by now!". How about the doctor: "you really want me to treat Mr. Smith? He's such an awful person--why, he'd be dead by now if it wasn't for us! What a parasite!"

The whole thing is bizzare on for at least three different reasons

First of all, it equates weakness with moral inferiority--although, of course, ONLY when it comes to the jews; when any other group of people is weak and requires protection, they deserve pity and help, not contempt and demands that they should shut up because they "wouldn't exist if it wasn't for...".

This is fascism, pure and simple, in its starkest form: the belief that right equals might, and, conversly, that weakness is a moral fault. And who does it come from? The same people who claim to be the most anti-fascist and claimed to identify with the "powerless" of the world!

Go figure.

Second, it contradicts the oft-heard view that israel is the "agressor". How can such a weak parasite be an agressor in the first place? Besides, isn't the fact that--if the claim is true--israel is in constant danger of being wiped out by the Arabs (which is why it "wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the USA" in the first place), rather good evidence that it's the defender, not the agressor?

Again, go figure!

Third, it contradicts the view (recently expressed here, among others, by "A Unique Person") that israel somehow "controls" the USA through the "zionists" in the governments and elsewhere. Quite apart from the fact that "the zionists control America" is merely an obvious rehash of the age-old "the jews control the world" libel, will you make up your mind: is israel a pathetic appendage of the USA, or is it its secret controller? It can hardly be both...

Once more, go figure!

...buuuuuuuuuut, who am I kidding. Logic has nothing to do with it. The one thing that's common to all these allegations is that they make israel look bad; whether they are true, or even self-consistent, is of no importance. The "israel won't exist without the US" is simply another item to add to the "how awful israel is" list.
 
Skeptic said:
I keep hearing this argument. From who? From people who want to claim israel is weak? No. From people who want to claim israel is pathetic? No. From people who want to claim israel is MORALLY inferior: a "parasite", an "annoyance", and so on.

Fine, without the US there will be no israel. And without the police coming to the house to stop an attempted murder, Ms. Jones would be dead now. And without modern medicine, Mr. Smith would be dead by now. What on earth does that have to do with Ms. Jones or Mr. Smith's morality? Can you imagine the defense lawyer in court: "Oh, c'mon, Ms. Jones, how can you claim you're morally better than my client? If the police had not come to save you from him, you'd be dead by now!". How about the doctor: "you really want me to treat Mr. Smith? He's such an awful person--why, he'd be dead by now if it wasn't for us! What a parasite!"

The whole thing is bizzare on for at least three different reasons

First of all, it equates weakness with moral inferiority--although, of course, ONLY when it comes to the jews; when any other group of people is weak and requires protection, they deserve pity and help, not contempt and demands that they should shut up because they "wouldn't exist if it wasn't for...".

This is fascism, pure and simple, in its starkest form: the belief that right equals might, and, conversly, that weakness is a moral fault. And who does it come from? The same people who claim to be the most anti-fascist and claimed to identify with the "powerless" of the world!

Go figure.

Second, it contradicts the oft-heard view that israel is the "agressor". How can such a weak parasite be an agressor in the first place? Besides, isn't the fact that--if the claim is true--israel is in constant danger of being wiped out by the Arabs (which is why it "wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the USA" in the first place), rather good evidence that it's the defender, not the agressor?

Again, go figure!

Third, it contradicts the view (recently expressed here, among others, by "A Unique Person") that israel somehow "controls" the USA through the "zionists" in the governments and elsewhere. Quite apart from the fact that "the zionists control America" is merely an obvious rehash of the age-old "the jews control the world" libel, will you make up your mind: is israel a pathetic appendage of the USA, or is it its secret controller? It can hardly be both...

Once more, go figure!

...buuuuuuuuuut, who am I kidding. Logic has nothing to do with it. The one thing that's common to all these allegations is that they make israel look bad; whether they are true, or even self-consistent, is of no importance. The "israel won't exist without the US" is simply another item to add to the "how awful israel is" list.
do you ever get tired of the straw man falacy?
ok "skeptic" its time to let us in on your mindreading abilities.

Can you direct me to anywhere in this forum that you have seen someone link US support and Israel being morally inferior, a parasite or an annoyance. I don't care if you disagree with someones belief that there would be no israel without US support, I also disagree with that claim....but why fabricate all the straw to attach to the claim?

Please show me where A_U_P claims zionists control america....I seem to remember him pointing out that US support of israel is more likely than US support of palestine due to the fact that a number of people in positions of influence in the US are either Jewish or Zionist and could be understandably seen as more likely to be sympathetic with Israel than palestinians......there are not many palestinians in a position to influence the US government..... This is a long way short of the "control" that you say was claimed....I may be wrong, I don't read all of A_U_P's posts so show me where A_U_P (or anyon else) claims zionists control America and we can discuss it.

I may also point out that except for the battle of the coral sea and the sacrafice of many brave Americans there may not have been any more Australia.... Do I need a long unstable rant about facism morality etc to discuss it?

I am often Justifiably critisized for smacking you around rather than addressing the points you raise....well I'll do you a deal. Start presenting arguments instead of strawman falacies and irrational rants and we may be able to start building some rational discussions.....Do us all a favor eh????
 
I thought that there wouldn't be an Israel without the British.

I didn't actually bother to read Skeptic's post.
 
"No. From people who want to claim israel is MORALLY inferior: a "parasite", an "annoyance", and so on. "

Your entire case is based on a straw man argument:

Show some examples of the argument that Israel depends on America because the former is morally inferior. I've never seen such an illogical argument made.

In fact, Israel does depend on the US, militarily and economically and diplomatically. While Israel is of use to the US, it receives the benefits of being a client state. These benefits will be withdrawn the moment Israel stops being useful -a fact amply demonstrated by the fact that the US only started to arm and fund Israel after it dealt with Eygpt, before that it was largely unconcerned with Israel's fate (The Jewish lobby's power in some respects is overrated). Israel is an off-shore military base...its population exploited and conned by American realpolitik and betrayed by successive Israeli Governments who have been more than willing to accept bombings and a state of perpetual seige because it enriches them personally and facilitates their continued expansion towards 'eretz' Israel.

Therefore, there it is not a contradiction to say that Israel is both the aggressor and dependant upon the US. Israel's aggression is facilitated by US economic, military, and diplomatic support. Any eight stone weakling can push people around if he has a gang of 15 stone thugs to back him up. America's support and funding of Israel has turned a tiny country, the size of Wales, into a fearsome military and nuclear power that could defeat any other power within NATO (except the US). This is a completely artificial and 'unnatural' ascendancy that could not occur if Israel were left to its own devices. Without US subsidy, Israels economy could never bear a war effort that would impoverish a medium-sized nation...it would implode.

Nor does your victim analogy hold water. Israel is the author of its own troubles and is attacked lagrely because of its colonial aggression. Since virtually all the surrounding Arab states now recognize Israel's right to exist, the argument that Israel is constant danger of being wiped out is extremely implausible. When one then considers that Israel could obliterate the surrounding nations before they were even able to mount an attack, the argument becomes utterly untenable.

The only people in danger of being 'driven into the sea' are the Palestinians. The only weak and defenceless nation in fear of extermination are the Palestinians. The principal victims are the Palestinians. These are blunt facts, which only the most ideologically disciplined, ignorant, or blind can ignore.






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