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There cannot be a democracy without large scale private enterprise.

JAStewart

Graduate Poster
JAStewart
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,521
Hey guys,

For my politics class soapbox speech, I choose the topic "There cannot be a democracy without large scale private enterprise." and I figured that I would probably end up forgetting some important points that would be raised in a lively discussion on here. I'd consider it a libertarian statement (I am wrong?).

I'm gonna go do some work on it but I'll look back in on the thread to see if anyone's noted anything I might have missed.

Oh, and just for the thread, I picked the topic because I agree with it. :)
 
What Geni said.
I agree that classic "The Workers (ie, The State) Control the Means Of Production" Marxism seems to be pretty incompatible with Democracy other the the Potemkin kind.
 
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Large-scale private enterprise is destroying our democracy now, because when it reaches the scale of a Walmart, it becomes the source of too much political power and all resources and infrastructure are subverted to keep it going.

Democracy in America arose from a society of small-scale private entrepreneurs. One of the tipping points was a tax break granted to a large-scale private enterprise with the support of the Royal Family, which almost broke the backs of smaller-scale private entrepreneurs in America.
 
A considerable percentage of the economy needs to be capitalist for a Democracy to function. I don't think it is a requirement that the capitalism be large scale, but as a matter of course businesses will grow larger to take advantage of the benefits of scale.

I think there are problems with large scale capitalism, but probably not for the reasons that leftysergeant does. One effect of large scale capitalism is that corporations use their financial power for bribery and to otherwise distort rational governance. Large scale enterprises of any kind attempt to use government for gaining special advantages.

Cheney seems to believe in this kind of governance. I think I've heard it called corporatism before. It's not exactly capitalism in that companies aren't competing in a free market. They attempt to use the government to subvert the free market for their advantage. It's not exactly socialism in that the leadership and ownership of the companies remains in private hands.

But I do think that leftysergeant is right in that the process has been enormously destructive for the US as the government has moved into a mode where cronyism is so deeply embedded that it is hard to imagine that the process can be reversed.

I think that one offshoot of this corporatism has been the rise in militarism by the US government. The fact seems to be that in order to sustain a military budget that is roughly equivalent to the entire rest of the world combined the US needs to have periodic hot wars. The wars can then be used as a means of selling the needs for ever increasing military expenditures to the populace.
 
You might want to change it into "there can´t be democracy with large scale private enterprises"

They tend to survive through marked manipulation and tax evation, something small and more efficient companies can´t do.
There is a reason for antitrust laws.

The goverment is voted in by the people and should run the country.
(generally to the benefit of the people, the opposition might disagree)

Not some corporation/s where the people have no influence, and whose purpose is only to enrich the shareholders, at everyone elses expence.
 
davefoc said:
But I do think that leftysergeant is right in that the process has been enormously destructive for the US as the government has moved into a mode where cronyism is so deeply embedded that it is hard to imagine that the process can be reversed.

I think that one offshoot of this corporatism has been the rise in militarism by the US government...
Click to expand...

The people Eisenhower warned us about have taken over the Republican Party and have a grip on the throat of the nation, by exactly this process. Maybe they will get their thumbs broken on Tuesday. (I can always hope.)
 
dudalb said:
What Geni said.
I agree that classic "The Workers (ie, The State) Control the Means Of Production" Marxism seems to be pretty incompatible with Democracy other the the Potemkin kind.
Click to expand...

Possibly, it is argueable that it has not been tried in the truest sense though.
 
leftysergeant said:
Large-scale private enterprise is destroying our democracy now, because when it reaches the scale of a Walmart, it becomes the source of too much political power and all resources and infrastructure are subverted to keep it going.

Democracy in America arose from a society of small-scale private entrepreneurs. One of the tipping points was a tax break granted to a large-scale private enterprise with the support of the Royal Family, which almost broke the backs of smaller-scale private entrepreneurs in America.
Click to expand...
Size per se isn't a problem as clout is. And clout doesn't necessarily follows size.

On a national/state level, the big business can tailor tax laws (as you mentioned.) They can also have whole departments soley dedicated to dodge tax laws. They often chimes in with the latest anti-business fad. Historically they have almost always been in favor of custom duties. And it doesn't takes much for them to show their real faces. Remember the american custom duties on steel earlier this decade. It was the "minimills" that paid for the big steel mills complacency and inflexibility.

The worst examples of this can be found in South Korea and could be found in South America until quite recently, where the big corporations had a bit too cozy relations with the government.

On a county/muncipal level, the small business can hinder big corporations. The classical example is when small town zoning laws is tailored to ward off any shopping malls from any godforsaken field outside town.

In short: It doesn't really matter if the businessmen plays politicans or if the politicans plays businessmen - it's the customer that picks up the bill.
 
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