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The Robots Taking the Jobs Industry

on Productivity Growth:

Baker seems to be too focused on the US market: Europe and others have had steady productivity growth, with no plateau in sight.
Because of the difference in labor markets, the US (at least in many regions) never had any shortage of cheap, less skilled labor, making it unnecessary to find robotic solutions for labor shortage.
In contrast, Japan is desperate to supplement its labor force with robots to make up for the aging, shrinking population.
The US will probably not be ground zero for the A.I. revolutions' impact on labor.
 
My field is all about automation, but it's also about information exchange. Our robots aren't taking jobs, they're doing a job that could never be done before, because the scale and speed of the task is simply beyond human capacity. This is a whole new field of commercial activity, that can only be accomplished by extensive automation. And it's a fertile field; far from losing jobs, we're constantly facing a shortage of humans who are capable of designing, building, maintaining, and improving a vast and growing ecosystem of robots.
 
ON replacing unskilled labor:

Baker is absolutely right that it isn't necessarily the least skilled who's job is replaced first. In fact, it will be hard make automation cheaper than Minimum Wage.

But in many areas, this isn't the limiting factor: for Trucking, the fact that an A.I. driver doesn't need sleep can be a bigger consideration than its price tag.
 
My field is all about automation, but it's also about information exchange. Our robots aren't taking jobs, they're doing a job that could never be done before, because the scale and speed of the task is simply beyond human capacity. This is a whole new field of commercial activity, that can only be accomplished by extensive automation. And it's a fertile field; far from losing jobs, we're constantly facing a shortage of humans who are capable of designing, building, maintaining, and improving a vast and growing ecosystem of robots.

I agree with a lot of this.
Most of the current economy is, for the purposes of human survival, completely optional: we are doing stuff that only affects the very top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid.
Because of this, there aren't many "real" jobs that are essential, and a basically arbitrarily large number of jobs we could do if we find a way to pay for them, irrespective of the level of automation.
 
He's right that so far it hasn't led to massive net job losses. We can see this simply by reading the monthly employment reports. The unemployment rate is 4 percent and we've been adding about 2.2 million jobs, net, per year for almost 10 years now.

It may be that robots simply aren't yet good enough to replace most humans. Maybe at some time in the future robots will finally reach a level where they can perform the same tasks as humans, and maybe more reliably, and then we will truly become obsolete. That moment has not arrived yet and I'm not certain that it ever will. But even if it does, maybe that's a good thing.

What is the purpose of a job after all? Is it to perform a necessary function or is it to give someone a living, a purpose in life? We've come to believe that "good jobs" are a good in themselves, but maybe we'd be better off if nobody had to work at all, and everyone was free to spend their days in any manner they saw fit? Because they don't need a job just to put food on the table.
 
1. Increased technology leading to mass unemployment has been a scare mongering talking point probably since Og first smashed a rock against the ground to make two smaller rocks was gonna decimate the Mammoth Hunting industry or something. And I'm inherently skeptical of any and all "But this time it's different, I know we said it was different last time but this time we mean it" arguments. More technology has actually lead to more jobs overall (affects on individual jobs/industry not withstanding) has been the rule like since forever.

2. That being said I agree that if does feel like we're on the cusp of something that is different for reasons that aren't 100% easy to verbalize. For me mass automation of the transport industry and the domino effect off of that is the most likely candidate to be a real "Okay this does change thing" tipping point, but I'm open the possibility of being wrong.

3. All that being said isn't all this the point of technology? To make it so we don't have to do the boring, dangerous, repetitive, or meaningless jobs?

4. That that being said a post-job world is one of those things that's easy to imagine and impossible to imagine any sort of transitory phase toward getting there. It's hard to imagine a society where someone people are just expected to work and others aren't without a lot of resentment brewing.

5. That, that, that being said this is all a moot point since the technologies that are going to lead to automation are going to happen, they aren't genies that are going to be kept in the bottle. We can't order progress to stop and can't (within any reasonable context) order companies to not use new technology.

6. I think some people (and I have to fight the urge to place myself in this category I must admit) are kind of smugly sitting there thinking "No computer/machine is ever going to replace me!" and they might be bluffing with cards they don't have. I'm in the IT field and we've always been bemused by fears of automation safe in the "Well somebody's gonna have to fix those computers!" argument and while that probably is true in the short to mid/sorta far term I wonder if it is... really long term. Computers that fix computers aren't that crazy of an idea. A robot on the assembly line who's purpose is to fix the other robots is not that crazy of an idea. An algorithm who's job it is to write algorithms... is already pretty much what an algorithm is to a large degree.

Okay so what about other things. Medicine? Are we (on a timeline worth discussion) going to have computer doctors? Probably not but a hospital full of automated systems to do all the blood pressure checking and questionnaires and routine injections staffed by only a small percentage of the doctors and nurses they have now? That's not just possible giving health care costs that is practically certain in some form.

Or let's hit the big one... art. No I'm not saying the next Hemingways and Rembrants and Daniel Day Lewis's are going to be computers per se, we don't need to have the "Does this unit have a soul?" argument here, but... basic aesthetics and route design... maybe. If you just need a simple graphic whipped up for a sales flyer... maybe. If you just need a simple melody for a jingle... maybe. You're always gonna go (again on a timeframe worth discussing in this context) to your A-list human actor to play important historical figure so and so in your Oscar bait biopic... but what about crowd scenes? Stuntmen? Bit parts? The attractive but down to Earth mom in your yogurt commercial? What's more attractive SAG wages for your background actors, safety concerns for your stuntment, the possibility that you might end up in a PR disaster because your casting director tried to bang Yogurt Mom..... or just download "Generic Suburban Mom Template #323" from StockActorSims.com and let the CGI boys handle it?
 
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I find the historical arguments frequently presented as evidence that technology has created more "jobs" than it has cost to be unconvincing. It conflates what we currently consider a "job" with something that in the context of 1850 would be "the amount of labor needed to live the best life available". I am reminded of The Flintstones when it is pointed out that advances in farming tech led to more "jobs". It seems to take a view that historical times were just like our time- simply with more rudimentary tools- ignoring that a paying "job" was a much rarer part of society as one moves back in time.
Looked at that way,technological progress has been reducing the need for labor for as long as there has been technological progress. This is a net positive, IMO, however I think it is nearing the time to once again decide what kind of society it is leading us to.

We have removed children from the pool of available labor because of increases in technology, and have (arguably) been extending the duration of effective "childhood" into the third decade of life. This has not been counted as a loss of "jobs", we have simply come to an agreement that these young people should somehow not be considered as part of the available labor pool.
We have agreed that the elderly are to be allowed to spend a substantive portion of their lives as "retirees". Sometimes for decades. Yet we don't see a lack of "jobs" as causing this- we view it as natural because the need for their labor is lacking.
The labor required to maintain a sanitary household that is climate controlled, well fed, dressed and healthy (something that was once a full time "job") has been reduced greatly and we have not looked that as a loss of "jobs".
The handicapped and infirm are not expected to starve on the streets due to lack of a "job".
These are all examples of net positives, don't get me wrong, yet they can also be viewed as "unemployment" by modern standards. We have simply chosen not to do so- then told ourselves that "jobs" have become more plentiful as technology has progressed, when what has actually happened is that we have altered our perception of what a "job" is- and who needs to have one if they wish to avoid pariah status.

The general outlook for the past several decades regarding who should be supplying the labor to keep our society healthy has been shrunk to only include healthy, not handicapped people between 20 and 65 (roughly) who are not engaged in some kind of post secondary education (which can acceptably reduce their productive years by up to another decade), engaged in the process of raising children, or (on a darker note) incarcerated, or prosecuting some kind of war (a destructive act which creates a need for more labor in the crassest way possible)

What is the next group that will be eliminated from the expected pool of available labor as technology moves forward? When 10% of the population can pull the cart that the other 90% are riding on, what rights will the riders have?
 
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1. Increased technology leading to mass unemployment has been a scare mongering talking point probably since Og first smashed a rock against the ground to make two smaller rocks was gonna decimate the Mammoth Hunting industry or something. And I'm inherently skeptical of any and all "But this time it's different, I know we said it was different last time but this time we mean it" arguments. More technology has actually lead to more jobs overall (affects on individual jobs/industry not withstanding) has been the rule like since forever.

2. That being said I agree that if does feel like we're on the cusp of something that is different for reasons that aren't 100% easy to verbalize. For me mass automation of the transport industry and the domino effect off of that is the most likely candidate to be a real "Okay this does change thing" tipping point, but I'm open the possibility of being wrong.

3. All that being said isn't all this the point of technology? To make it so we don't have to do the boring, dangerous, repetitive, or meaningless jobs?

4. That that being said a post-job world is one of those things that's easy to imagine and impossible to imagine any sort of transitory phase toward getting there. It's hard to imagine a society where someone people are just expected to work and others aren't without a lot of resentment brewing.

5. That, that, that being said this is all a moot point since the technologies that are going to lead to automation are going to happen, they aren't genies that are going to be kept in the bottle. We can't order progress to stop and can't (within any reasonable context) order companies to not use new technology.

6. I think some people (and I have to fight the urge to place myself in this category I must admit) are kind of smugly sitting there thinking "No computer/machine is ever going to replace me!" and they might be bluffing with cards they don't have. I'm in the IT field and we've always been bemused by fears of automation safe in the "Well somebody's gonna have to fix those computers!" argument and while that probably is true in the short to mid/sorta far term I wonder if it is... really long term. Computers that fix computers aren't that crazy of an idea. A robot on the assembly line who's purpose is to fix the other robots is not that crazy of an idea. An algorithm who's job it is to write algorithms... is already pretty much what an algorithm is to a large degree.

Okay so what about other things. Medicine? Are we (on a timeline worth discussion) going to have computer doctors? Probably not but a hospital full of automated systems to do all the blood pressure checking and questionnaires and routine injections staffed by only a small percentage of the doctors and nurses they have now? That's not just possible giving health care costs that is practically certain in some form.

Or let's hit the big one... art. No I'm not saying the next Hemingways and Rembrants and Daniel Day Lewis's are going to be computers per se, we don't need to have the "Does this unit have a soul?" argument here, but... basic aesthetics and route design... maybe. If you just need a simple graphic whipped up for a sales flyer... maybe. If you just need a simple melody for a jingle... maybe. You're always gonna go (again on a timeframe worth discussing in this context) to your A-list human actor to play important historical figure so and so in your Oscar bait biopic... but what about crowd scenes? Stuntmen? Bit parts? The attractive but down to Earth mom in your yogurt commercial? What's more attractive SAG wages for your background actors, safety concerns for your stuntment, the possibility that you might end up in a PR disaster because your casting director tried to bang Yogurt Mom..... or just download "Generic Suburban Mom Template #323" from StockActorSims.com and let the CGI boys handle it?
100% agree with your second point.
Robocars are on the way (IMO) and will be a sea-change to our culture.
 
Office drones are the most likely to get wiped out. So much of that work is just moving paper and numbers. Hell, half of my office drone job is to automate myself out of it.

As long as dying on a low paying, soul crushing job is seen as "honorable", there will be plenty of people poor and desperate enough to make automation not worth it.
 
I find the historical arguments frequently presented as evidence that technology has created more "jobs" than it has cost to be unconvincing. It conflates what we currently consider a "job" with something that in the context of 1850 would be "the amount of labor needed to live the best life available". I am reminded of The Flintstones when it is pointed out that advances in farming tech led to more "jobs". It seems to take a view that historical times were just like our time- simply with more rudimentary tools- ignoring that a paying "job" was a much rarer part of society as one moves back in time.
Looked at that way,technological progress has been reducing the need for labor for as long as there has been technological progress. This is a net positive, IMO, however I think it is nearing the time to once again decide what kind of society it is leading us to.

We have removed children from the pool of available labor because of increases in technology, and have (arguably) been extending the duration of effective "childhood" into the third decade of life. This has not been counted as a loss of "jobs", we have simply come to an agreement that these young people should somehow not be considered as part of the available labor pool.
We have agreed that the elderly are to be allowed to spend a substantive portion of their lives as "retirees". Sometimes for decades. Yet we don't see a lack of "jobs" as causing this- we view it as natural because the need for their labor is lacking.
The labor required to maintain a sanitary household that is climate controlled, well fed, dressed and healthy (something that was once a full time "job") has been reduced greatly and we have not looked that as a loss of "jobs".
The handicapped and infirm are not expected to starve on the streets due to lack of a "job".
These are all examples of net positives, don't get me wrong, yet they can also be viewed as "unemployment" by modern standards. We have simply chosen not to do so- then told ourselves that "jobs" have become more plentiful as technology has progressed, when what has actually happened is that we have altered our perception of what a "job" is- and who needs to have one if they wish to avoid pariah status.

The general outlook for the past several decades regarding who should be supplying the labor to keep our society healthy has been shrunk to only include healthy, not handicapped people between 20 and 65 (roughly) who are not engaged in some kind of post secondary education (which can acceptably reduce their productive years by up to another decade), engaged in the process of raising children, or (on a darker note) incarcerated, or prosecuting some kind of war (a destructive act which creates a need for more labor in the crassest way possible)

What is the next group that will be eliminated from the expected pool of available labor as technology moves forward? When 10% of the population can pull the cart that the other 90% are riding on, what rights will the riders have?

I think the big difference between now and the industrial revolution is that back then, old jobs were eliminated by machines that still needed human building them. Also, new industries were being created an an emerging middle class was rapidly expanding. A buggy whip maker could get a job working on automobiles and apply his fabricating skills.

This new revolution, people are being replaced by machines, but there's no other place to go. An algorithm or program that replaces an accounting department is going to hit the market and replace a lot of marketing departments. Hell, I've seen first hand systems that automate a lot of the work doctors and nurses do. Where do they go when those jobs are downsized?
 
Office drones are the most likely to get wiped out. So much of that work is just moving paper and numbers. Hell, half of my office drone job is to automate myself out of it.

As long as dying on a low paying, soul crushing job is seen as "honorable", there will be plenty of people poor and desperate enough to make automation not worth it.
For all of recorded history the mass of people have gotten by by pretending to be a machine that hadn't been invented yet.
What are we when we can no longer pretend well enough? Is there some kind of intrinsic value in simply existing as a HomoSapien?
 
I don't know how universal this is, but when I was working we heard about the 3 D's of automation: Dumb, Dirty, Dangerous. Those are the jobs that should be automated. For Dumb, you should probably read "repetitious".

Also, what's the difference between actually automating a job and outsourcing it to India?
 
For all of recorded history the mass of people have gotten by by pretending to be a machine that hadn't been invented yet.
What are we when we can no longer pretend well enough? Is there some kind of intrinsic value in simply existing as a HomoSapien?

I don't know how universal this is, but when I was working we heard about the 3 D's of automation: Dumb, Dirty, Dangerous. Those are the jobs that should be automated. For Dumb, you should probably read "repetitious".

Also, what's the difference between actually automating a job and outsourcing it to India?

What has happened in the past is that technology has been introduced that enabled cheaper products to be made with lower wage costs needed. This increased the spending power of people. So new jobs needed to be created to produce this increased spending power (read standard of living). There are certain problems with this that may not have existed in the past

1. The new jobs may require different skills from the jobs that are lost. This has not been a major problem in the past as many old and their replacement jobs were low skilled. But get rid of many highly skilled workers with no similar new jobs and you get structural unemployment of workers that were very expensive to train.

2. The new jobs may be in different locations. They move the factory from an industrialised country to a poor country (or the other way round!) and you got unemployment in one country.

3. Getting rid of unskilled workers. A certain % of people cannot be educated beyond the very basic levels. Get rid of the jobs that they can do and that % of the population is then permanently unemployed. There is only so much that education can provide.
 
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on Productivity Growth:

Baker seems to be too focused on the US market: Europe and others have had steady productivity growth, with no plateau in sight.
Because of the difference in labor markets, the US (at least in many regions) never had any shortage of cheap, less skilled labor, making it unnecessary to find robotic solutions for labor shortage.
In contrast, Japan is desperate to supplement its labor force with robots to make up for the aging, shrinking population.
The US will probably not be ground zero for the A.I. revolutions' impact on labor.

The oddball part in his argument is using productivity growth projections to say, nope, not gonna happen. Projections are based on assumptions that may seem reasonable based on past circumstances, but may not apply in the future. As an example, when I analyzed real estate proposals in the early 1980s we used 8% inflation per annum in our models. By 1984 that was down to 4%.

And the tech may be flashy but does it really work? I bought myself one of those Google Minis (like the Alexa), and to be honest I mostly use it for checking the temperature. I asked it what the line was on the Super Bowl and it said it couldn't answer that question right now. Of course I went on the web and quickly Googled the answer. I asked it when Game of Thrones was returning and it said according to the Hollywood Reporter, GoT would return sometime in 2019. Went on the web and got the exact date.
 
My echo gave me the line when I asked for. Also, consumer electronics you find at Best Buy aren't really what we need to be worried about. Its the application in the work place. Like this Google AI that can makes calls for you. Sales people should be scared of this.
 
<snip>
And the tech may be flashy but does it really work? I bought myself one of those Google Minis (like the Alexa), and to be honest I mostly use it for checking the temperature. I asked it what the line was on the Super Bowl and it said it couldn't answer that question right now. Of course I went on the web and quickly Googled the answer. I asked it when Game of Thrones was returning and it said according to the Hollywood Reporter, GoT would return sometime in 2019. Went on the web and got the exact date.

Was given a Google Mini and we use it to play music from YouTube Music. It is only a cheap device so do not expect it to be able to do much. Though it should be able to answer basic questions from the Web.
 
I think the big change is going to be jobs that have wrongly be considered "skilled" for a long time, when what they have been is "information deep". The example I would give is general practitioners, they need to know a lot but don't require any great level of skill, these are areas in which "AI" is already surpassing what trained and experienced humans can do. As an example: https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/12/...curacy-in-metastatic-breast-cancer-detection/
 
The machines are taking over, and I couldn't be happier. I don't even write most of my posts anymore.
 

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