the poker chips are down!

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
andyandy
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
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breaking news.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5171034.stm

The US House of Representatives has backed a bill which aims to rein in online gambling.
The bill aims to limit internet gaming by making it illegal for US-based banks and credit card firms to make payments to online gambling sites.
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Is it likely to pass the senate?

Any ramifications for the UK?

seems kinda draconian to me.....after all the online gaming industry is hugely popular - and has a $6billion US turnover....
 
Dammit, I hope this doesn't pass.

I like playing online poker. And no, I don't spend gazillions of dollars. I play penny-blind Hold 'Em. I play 2-3 times a week, at worst break even, and generally enjoy myself.
 
So the gambling sites use non-descript front companies to take payment. Banks couldn't possibly know every company that's a front for a gambling company.

Once again our lawmakers haven't taken 30 seconds to think carefully about an issue.
 
well....BBC reckon it's not likely to pass this time in the senate (not enough time apparently) - and the shares in party poker havent dived, so the city mustn't be too worried either...
 
Online gambling sites are unfair, unregulated competition for regulated gambling sites whose operators undergo background checks to reduce the likelihood of criminal involvement.
Players at online gambling sites have no recourse if they are cheated. Players at legal casinos or card rooms can go to the gambling commission.
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Link
 
Hagrok said:
True enough; doesn't mean that this particular legislation would be effective however.

I'm actually not sure what could be done since a lot of those gambling sites are run over seas. Any ideas?
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I am against regulation of the internet just on general principles.

This legislation appears to move beyond the internet and into the bank vault.

Yeah. Ways will be found around it. You can bet on it - D'oh!
 
Luke T. said:
I am against regulation of the internet just on general principles.

This legislation appears to move beyond the internet and into the bank vault.

Yeah. Ways will be found around it. You can bet on it - D'oh!
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I suppose we could just cut all those cables that lead over seas, and shoot down all the comm sats... ;)
 
Just taking a shot at Luke's quote:

Online gambling sites are unfair,
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Of course they're unfair! They're gambling sites! Every single regulated gambling site is unfair, too.

unregulated competition for regulated gambling sites
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Oh, no! Competition! Whatever shall we do??!?!

whose operators undergo background checks to reduce the likelihood of criminal involvement.
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And is there a shred of evidence that the criminal involvement in, say, PokerStars.net is greater than that involved in your average Atlantic City casino?

Players at online gambling sites have no recourse if they are cheated.
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Of course we do. It's called fraud, and it's illegal.

Players at legal casinos or card rooms can go to the gambling commission.
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And players at Pokerstars can go through the FBI. Of course, since everything is on the table (literally) at a place like Pokerstars, you can see what's going on, and if the house is cheating it becomes very, very obvious very, very quickly.

What silly logic. It's like saying that since, you can be mugged walking in the bad areas of town, we should ban walking down the street.
 
I don't see what's to stop Americans from simply having an non-US-based bank transfer the funds.

Hagrok said:
I'm actually not sure what could be done since a lot of those gambling sites are run over seas. Any ideas?
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I take it you meant "overseas"?

Cleon said:
Of course we do. It's called fraud, and it's illegal.
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But the US doesn't really have jurisdiction.

And players at Pokerstars can go through the FBI.
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Besides the issue of jurisdiction, there's the fact that a victim would have to admit to engaging in criminal activity.
 
Art Vandelay said:
But the US doesn't really have jurisdiction.
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Actually, they do, because the companies in question are doing business in the United States. This is similar to why the FBI has jurisdiction over Nigerian 419 scams--they might originate from overseas, but they're doing business in the good ol' US of A--which makes it FBI business if someone is scammed.

Besides the issue of jurisdiction, there's the fact that a victim would have to admit to engaging in criminal activity.
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It is not currently illegal for a person to gamble online, except in a handful of states (and in that case, the FBI definitely doesn't have jurisdiction).
 
Front companies can indeed be used to take payments, but it's not that simple. Gambling sites would not be able to extend credit to players using US-based credit cards, because even if the player agrees to charges, they don't have to actually pay up, because it's illegal for their credit card company to do so, so they can just point out what the charges were really for to their credit card company after running up a big bill. Sites can't operate profitably with that kind of risk.

There are ways around this, such as using non-US bank accounts and credit cards as intermediaries, so this can't really cut things off. But it does make things much more difficult, because a lot of potential players probably aren't willing to jump through those hoops.
 
Here's a question; this bill seems preoccupied with credit cards, but how would this affect ACH transfers? As far as I am aware--and granted, I am not well versed in the finer points of international commerce--there is nothing stopping a foreign bank from making an ACH withdrawal from your checking account. I know many sites already have that as a funding option.
 
This has already been done in Norway - you can't use a credit card on online poker sites.

I don't play online poker, but still... Who the hell are parliament to decide what I do with my money?!?!
 
Cleon said:
Actually, they do, because the companies in question are doing business in the United States.
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That's rather shaky legal ground. If someone in France calls me up and orders something, am I doing business in France?

This is similar to why the FBI has jurisdiction over Nigerian 419 scams--they might originate from overseas, but they're doing business in the good ol' US of A--which makes it FBI business if someone is scammed.
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The FBI can collect information on anyone they want. But they can't enter Nigeria without permission, they can't arrest anyone in Nigeria, they can't issue supoenas, they can't extradite Nigerians, etc. So any "jurisdiction" is largely theoretical, as it is in gambling. I suppose that if you can get the scammer to enter the US, the FBI might be able to do something, but other than that, the FBI is just going to put it all in a file and that's it.

It is not currently illegal for a person to gamble online, except in a handful of states (and in that case, the FBI definitely doesn't have jurisdiction).
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I very much doubt that. Other than Nevada and perhaps Neew Jersey, I don't know of any state where it's legal to gamble.

Ziggurat said:
Front companies can indeed be used to take payments, but it's not that simple. Gambling sites would not be able to extend credit to players using US-based credit cards, because even if the player agrees to charges, they don't have to actually pay up, because it's illegal for their credit card company to do so, so they can just point out what the charges were really for to their credit card company after running up a big bill. Sites can't operate profitably with that kind of risk.
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Hmm. Could they still mess up someone's credit rating? I was thinking it would be a debit system.

Cleon said:
Here's a question; this bill seems preoccupied with credit cards, but how would this affect ACH transfers? As far as I am aware--and granted, I am not well versed in the finer points of international commerce--there is nothing stopping a foreign bank from making an ACH withdrawal from your checking account.
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Er... do you mean "other than they need your permission"? Or do I need to put my money under the mattress?
 
Art Vandelay said:
That's rather shaky legal ground. If someone in France calls me up and orders something, am I doing business in France?

The FBI can collect information on anyone they want. But they can't enter Nigeria without permission, they can't arrest anyone in Nigeria, they can't issue supoenas, they can't extradite Nigerians, etc. So any "jurisdiction" is largely theoretical, as it is in gambling. I suppose that if you can get the scammer to enter the US, the FBI might be able to do something, but other than that, the FBI is just going to put it all in a file and that's it.
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True, but it is their case--and I was mistaken, it's not the FBI, it's the Department of the Treasury, specifically the Secret Service. They are the ones who investigate the case and work with Nigerian (or whoever) authorities to have the culprits tried and/or extradited.

I very much doubt that. Other than Nevada and perhaps Neew Jersey, I don't know of any state where it's legal to gamble.
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<pedantic>It's legal to gamble in every state that has a lottery and allows stock trading. ;) </pedantic>

As far as I'm aware, the prohibition on gambling is usually the operation of gambling sites, not the actual act itself. I see, upon googling, that this is not the case in Georgia, where the act of gambling is a misdemeanor. However, South Carolina does not penalize the act of gambling, nor does New York, California (I think--man, that's one convoluted piece of legislation), or Maryland (interesting--MD specifically bans a Basque game called Jai Alai for some reason).

However, my point about jurisdiction stands; it is not the job of the SS (or FBI) to enforce state laws, especially misdemeanors.

But many states have legal gambling these days--whether via Native American casinos, or site licenses. My home state of Pennsylvania has authorized the creation of several casino licenses across the state, and is currently hacking through the process of their allocation (Pittsburgh is already talking about using the tax revenue to partially fund a new venue for the Penguins). A number of states allow Riverboat gambling. Branson, Missouri is considered the poor man's Vegas (and is also home to the #1 victim of the USSR's collapse).

Er... do you mean "other than they need your permission"? Or do I need to put my money under the mattress?
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Well, yes, of course. Technically, if they have your routing & account number, they can do it anyway, but, well, see info about 419 scams above. ;)
 
Art Vandelay said:
I very much doubt that. Other than Nevada and perhaps Neew Jersey, I don't know of any state where it's legal to gamble.
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Let's see. Here in Oregon we have casinos. And there are casinos in Mississippi. Remember the news reports of one being lifted and dropped in the middle of a highway during Hurricane Katrina? And the world's largest casino is in Connecticut...
 
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