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The "myth" of herd immunity

Hooloovoo

Superintelligent shade of Bloo
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
274
I have an antivaxxer on my FB page who insists that herd immunity is a myth, because vaccines wear off over time and people aren't protected by their vaccine induced antibodies after several years. He mentioned the MMR vaccine in particular.
Could I get some information about herd immunity? Is it a myth?

So far, I haven't run across much information to make me think that it is, but I'm throwing the question out here.
 
It's true that vaccines lose their effectiveness over time, but that doesn't negate herd immunity. If most people are vaccinated against a particular virus, the virus has little chance of infecting one who is not vaccinated, simply because few people in his "herd" will be infectious.

People should get vaccinated as an act of altruism.
 
I have an antivaxxer on my FB page who insists that herd immunity is a myth, because vaccines wear off over time and people aren't protected by their vaccine induced antibodies after several years. He mentioned the MMR vaccine in particular.
Could I get some information about herd immunity? Is it a myth?

So far, I haven't run across much information to make me think that it is, but I'm throwing the question out here.
The MMR vaccine is probably one of the worst examples for an anti-vaxer to use as a demonstration of 'the myth of herd immunity'. With the exception of the lower than thought efficacy and duration of mumps (but still provides some herd immunity), all you have to do is look at pre and post vaccine measles and rubella statistics anywhere the vaccine is used. U.S. for example: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

There are also plenty of stats from the U.K. and Switzerland that demonstrate an inverse correlation with vaccine uptake and measles (and now mumps) cases.
 
I suggest you start with wikipedia.
I have gone to Wikipedia, and made a few searches online. The most credible I've found support herd immunity. While it looks to my (admittedly medically ignorant) eyes that herd immunity is a real thing, and it's an important thing, I'd like to hear from some of you, especially since many of you are in the medical field. To be honest, I didn't know antivaxxers considered herd immunity a myth. I'd never heard anybody say it was.
 
The MMR vaccine is probably one of the worst examples for an anti-vaxer to use as a demonstration of 'the myth of herd immunity'. With the exception of the lower than thought efficacy and duration of mumps (but still provides some herd immunity), all you have to do is look at pre and post vaccine measles and rubella statistics anywhere the vaccine is used. U.S. for example: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

There are also plenty of stats from the U.K. and Switzerland that demonstrate an inverse correlation with vaccine uptake and measles (and now mumps) cases.
Thanks Estella!
 
Antivaxxers don't consider that vaccinated people are still exposed to the viruses and bacteria, but because of their immune status can get subclinical infections which then boosts their immune system. Also, the immune response is normally measured by antibody levels which do wane over time, but it's the memory B and T cells that provide immunological memory and these are not measured. If the immune response wanes then middle aged people would be getting measles and mumps etc wouldn't they?
 
Most vaccines don't "wear off". It depends on the person, not the vaccine. Even people sick with chicken pox once can get it again. All of us are at risk of shingles later on in life after getting chicken pox just once. I have to wonder why there is no herpes vaccine? That virus hides in our body to come bite us in the lip or ***** repeatedly through our lives. I guess it doesn't cause cancer like HPV though.
 
The point is to target the vector population, generaly children, so yes while for some vaccines the ratio of antibodies falls off, or the virus changes it's shell, you have stopped the spread by comtrolling it in the vector population.

Now I think the eradication of polio in many areas also points out the ignorance of some people. If they would rather be paralyzed than have a vaccine and pose a potential threat to others, well...
 
Without doing any mathematics.
Instead of vaccinating people, lets say we shoot them.

Take a group of 100 and shoot 99.
Supposing number 100 doesn't already have the virus, given that person-person contact is the sole, or major vector.
Did his chance of catching it just go up or not?

How (from the POV of the virus) does vaccinating those people differ from shooting them?

Can you fight the spread of fire by removing potential fuel?
Yes. Foresters do so daily, by thinning undergrowth, even when no fires are burning.
Maybe that's a better metaphor?
 
Antivaxxers don't consider that vaccinated people are still exposed to the viruses and bacteria, but because of their immune status can get subclinical infections which then boosts their immune system. Also, the immune response is normally measured by antibody levels which do wane over time, but it's the memory B and T cells that provide immunological memory and these are not measured. If the immune response wanes then middle aged people would be getting measles and mumps etc wouldn't they?


What he said.

I might have known Capsid would get here first and explain it better than I could!

I work with real "herds" and the role of exposure to the field pathogen in boosting the immunity of vaccinated animals is well recognised. A low level of circulating pathogen, with juveniles being protected by vaccination before they actually meet this, is a recipe for very strong immunity.

Oh yeah, and never underestimate CMI.

Rolfe.
 
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I work with real "herds" and the role of exposure to the field pathogen in boosting the immunity of vaccinated animals is well recognised. A low level of circulating pathogen, with juveniles being protected by vaccination before they actually meet this, is a recipe for very strong immunity.

Wow, Rolfe, that is a great word picture of how it works, at least for this (former) country boy.

Oh yeah, and never underestimate CMI.

CMI?
 
CMI = Cell-mediated immunity.

It is the other branch of the adaptive immune system. One branch, the humoral response, makes antibodies, which mainly seek to neutralize extracellular pathogens, such as bacteria. The other branch, CMI, utilizes specialty cells to recognize infected cells (such as virally infected cells) or malfunctioning cells (such as cancer) and eliminate them before the problem spreads.
 
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Herd immunity doesn't exist? Strange, lets ask someone with smallpox about it...
MrQ
 
Most vaccines don't "wear off". It depends on the person, not the vaccine. Even people sick with chicken pox once can get it again. All of us are at risk of shingles later on in life after getting chicken pox just once. I have to wonder why there is no herpes vaccine? That virus hides in our body to come bite us in the lip or ***** repeatedly through our lives. I guess it doesn't cause cancer like HPV though.

Mods, if this is too off-topic, please feel free to move it. Wall of text incoming:

Well, the herpes viral family is pretty vast and complex. Most people are carriers of some members of the herpes family without even knowing it. Herpes viruses are very good at establishing latent infections in people (making it very difficult to target with the immune system) and also using a variety of viral proteins to help subvert and circumvent other immune surveillance. The herpes family includes some very common viruses - Herpes Simplex I and II (oral and genital ulcers and potential neurological disease), Varicella Zoster (chickenpox and shingles), cytomegalovirus aka CMV (congenital defects, neurological disease and mononucleosis), Epstein-Barr virus aka EBV (mononucleosis, Burkitt's lymphoma, nasopharengeal carcinoma).

Just about any herpes infection can result in becoming a carrier, and most people are infected/carriers with CMV and EBV and some of the other lesser known herpes viruses. In my field of immunology, researchers are trying to decipher why some herpes viruses sometimes cause disease in some otherwise healthy people (why doesn't the immune system just wipe the virus out), what causes their latent infections and the mechanisms of latency and re-activation as well as detection of latent viruses, and some work on vaccines, which seems to be very complicated in herpes viruses. Coincidentally, latent viruses don't seem to boost the immune system, thus don't aid in long-term immune memory.

However, both chickenpox and shingles have vaccines available. If you have never had chickenpox, you can get that and won't have to worry about the disease becoming latent and getting shingles later in life. However, if you have had chickenpox, you can still get a shingles vaccine (usually recommended after 60 years old) which can cut down your chances of getting shingles by about 65-70%. The targeted virus is the same, but my best guess is the exact vaccine differs in how the immune system responds to it, with the chickenpox vaccine eliciting more of a humoral response, and the shingles vaccine more of a cell-mediated response.

Epstein-Barr virus, most commonly known for causing mononucleosis, can also cause cancer. However, like all herpes viruses, it can establish latent infections and the prevalence of cancer is not the dominant effect of an infection, since about 95% of the population becomes infected during their lifetime, and Burkitt's lymphoma is not common in industrialized countries. I don't want to get into the politics of vaccines, but Burkitt's lymphoma is more common in equatorial Africa, where malaria is also dominant (malaria is thought to reduce resistance to Epstein-Barr virus). Of your original post though, Herpes Simplex I and II do not cause cancer. There is a phase III clinical trial in the United States for a Herpes Simplex II vaccine, called Herpevac, which seems to prevent the disease in some women (about 70-80%), but has not been shown to be effective in men.

Tricky things, those herpes viruses.
 
Awesome post, but yes, I was meaning the Herpes Simplex I and II viruses specifically.

I'm a woman, but I know I already carry the oral variety, and am at extreme low risk for the genital variety (being married), but I'd get them for my daughter. How much longer for those vaccines?
 
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Awesome post, but yes, I was meaning the Herpes Simplex I and II viruses specifically.

Where are the vaccines for those? I'm a woman, but I know I already carry the oral variety, and am at extreme low risk for the genital variety (being married), but I'd get them for my daughter.

Sorry, I got carried away. :blush:

As I mentioned, there is a phase III clinical trial in the United States for a Herpes Simplex II vaccine, called Herpevac. None yet for Simplex I. As an aside, your daughter may already carry simplex I, as you can potentially pass it on from kissing her.
 
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she does.

LIke I said, awesome post. We love posters like you who know their stuff, and I totally enjoyed reading. Feel free to get carried away as much as you like!
 

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