The L.D.S

[Scot C. Trypal]

Maybe it’s just because my “in-laws” are devout LDS, but it seems odd to me the Mormons don’t get much press or spend much time on this forum.

Did anyone else even know they just had their conference? I’ve seen very little coverage of it. They just picked two new members of the Quorum of the Twelve, a modern day flock of disciples for their “Living Prophet”.

God supposedly dictates these sorts of choices through the Prophet. This time, in a rare step, God picked one of the guys (they are all guys) from outside the US, a German.

Anyway I was wondering this forum’s take on the LDS.

Personally, I find it to be one of the more promising religions ever created. Sure, it has clear (sometimes comical) blunders in its sacred texts with regards to science and history, but that never stopped the Bible . I’d even say the Book of Mormon, D&C, and The Pearl of Great Price have one up on the Bible for being written by one hand, thus limiting the internal contradictions.

The best thing though has got to be the living prophet; they put him to good use.

Polygamy is part of your sacred texts, but The Man says drop it or you won’t become a state? Fine! God sends a message to your prophet to change the dogma and that’s the end of that.

Your religion won’t let blacks have the priesthood, but those bleeding-heart liberals are crying bigotry? Fine! Another message sent and blacks can be priests.

They have the strong, pleasing, and seemingly ancient and eternal truths of their scriptures and the Bible. But they mix it with the flexibility of a living prophet. That mix makes, in my mind, the LDS faith one of the strongest contenders of the future religious landscape.

What do you think?

 

[Chanileslie]

Well, I used to be Mormon, and actually, if it weren't for the inherent sexism and the whole believing in god thing, I loved the Mormon church. It was a great place. I always felt warm and accepted, and a part of the group. The Mormon community was great! It didn't matter if one were a social outcast outside the church, within the church one was important and had plenty of friends. Also, the church was very supportive. If one needed something, or even just needed a shoulder to cry on, there was somebody always ready and willing to supply these things. The social functions were great - I had so much fun at these from the Rock-a-thon to the dances to the horse riding to the cooking classes. It was absolutely great.

Also, of many religions, the Mormons tend to be scientifically supportive.

Of course, I admit that although I new the General Conference was taking place, I didn't know any more than that. I haven't kept up with the church since Spencer T. Kimble was the Prophet.


Speaking of the Prophet, who is supposedly choosen by god, how was it determined god has choosen soandso, and I was told that the highest elder on the Quorum of 12 would be moved into the Prophet position, and so I said, but how is that god's choice? What if god wanted the guy who was 10 highest to be the Prophet? The anwer was, "Well then god would take the Prophet to heaven until the correct Prophet was in place!" I felt that was a rather inefficient way to get one's messages across!

 

[Soapy Sam]

I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Well, I used to be Mormon, and actually, if it weren't for the inherent sexism and the whole believing in god thing, I loved the Mormon church.

I was too for a brief period, and, I agree, there really is much to enjoy. As you describe, their strong focus on a sense of community is great. Their focus on both small and large charity and strengthening families is also admirable to me (save for where they deal with families containing homosexuals).

This is another way in which I see the LDS faith taking off; it kind of did to the NT what the NT did to the OT. It updated the religion and continues to do so. With the NT there are some verses which are very distasteful to modern sensibilities. For example, the arguably family-hostile or dismissive verses like:

“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

And

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

But, with the LDS, all the sudden your marriage and family is divinely important. It is now in fact a ticket to the highest realm of heaven.

The LDS also have a more just afterlife, with 3 heavens into which most all humanity will make it. I was told even the lowest kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom where even non-LDS criminals go, would be so pleasant you’d kill yourself just to get there.

Speaking of the Prophet, who is supposedly choosen by god, how was it determined god has choosen soandso, and I was told that the highest elder on the Quorum of 12 would be moved into the Prophet position, and so I said, but how is that god's choice? What if god wanted the guy who was 10 highest to be the Prophet? The anwer was, "Well then god would take the Prophet to heaven until the correct Prophet was in place!" I felt that was a rather inefficient way to get one's messages across!

This is why I wish some LDS would post here; I’d like to understand this better as well (Also, I generally find them to have a more pleasant temperament than average). I remember being told the highest elder was most always to be the next prophet but God could instruct the Quorum to pick someone else, without knocking off disciples.

I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

The LDS do give out impressive sounding titles pretty liberally. Even I’m an “elder” and a “priest” (well I was until I asked to be excommunicated a couple years ago).

I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

It’s an odd God to be sure. He has a physical body on which to hang medals. He has a wife; lives on a distant planet of “glass and fire”; and (I’m not sure how popular this still is) was once mortal, with His own God… Why not metals and epaulettes?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

Another Ex-Mormon chiming in....

Your father's comment actually wasn't too far off the mark. The priesthood in the LDS church is very unique, basically every male member of the church has some rank in the priesthood. If you have grown up in the church you can probably take the title of Elder by the time you are 18. A Bishop isn't really that high in the hierarchy, though if your local Mormon population was so small it would seem more likely that you would have a 'Branch President' who would answer to a Bishop in a larger community, but it may be that there were no large communities of LDS memeber near you so one of the 'Branch Presidents' is in fact a Bishop.

As for the original post, while I think there are some tings in Mormon Doctrine that would make it more attractive to people than conventional Christian doctrine (The LDS idea of the afterlife, for example, avoids things like the idea of infinite punishment for finite sins and gives you an actual reason for the whole thing) but I don't see it becoming much more of a player in the world of religion than it already is.

The reason for this is simply tradition. People tend to pick up the religion of their parents, i.e. if you were brought up Catholic you will tend to see the Catholic Church as being the right one. Sure there is some trade off, but I think the fact that most people are brought up in other churches will act as a limit to how far the LDS Church can grow. You might have the occasional die-hard methodist converting to Mormonism but then you have the occasional Mormon becoming a Methodist and most people are going to stay with what they were brought up in.

Just my $0.02

 

[Loon]

It is my understanding, based on conversations with a Mormon friend (who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested) that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world. I think the missionaries all over the world, the general positive image and the (stereotype) of large families all contribute to a growing religion.

 

[EdipisReks]

my family, on both sides, is mormon, though my parents are lapsed. i find them irritating, especially when members of the clergy visits every month despite having been told to stay the **** away.

Edited by darat: 

Edited for breach of Rule 8.

 

[SezMe]

It is my understanding, based on conversations with a Mormon friend (who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested) that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world. I think the missionaries all over the world, the general positive image and the (stereotype ) of large families all contribute to a growing religion.

My added emphasis.

What, you're saying the average-sized Mormon family is statistically the same as all of the USA. Got evidence?

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Nyarlathotep:

The reason for this is simply tradition. People tend to pick up the religion of their parents, i.e. if you were brought up Catholic you will tend to see the Catholic Church as being the right one. Sure there is some trade off, but I think the fact that most people are brought up in other churches will act as a limit to how far the LDS Church can grow. You might have the occasional die-hard methodist converting to Mormonism but then you have the occasional Mormon becoming a Methodist and most people are going to stay with what they were brought up in.

I see your point, and, as you surely know as an ex, the LDS church does too. Families are encouraged to be large. One of my relatives claims to live “higher” LDS law and that means, among other things, no birth control at all and 7 children, at the time of this post .

The LDS also have one of the most aggressive missionary programs I know of. All men are expected to serve for two years, and a good portion of the women serve as well. Heck (to use the LDS lingo), even my better half went on a mission and converted nearly a dozen Buddhists to Mormonism. That’s a force to reckon with.

Of course you’re right that people are still going to tend to stick with the familiar, but that’s also the cleverness of the LDS religion. Sort of like the NT, the LDS scriptures don’t try make something out of thin air. They piggyback on older, more credible and familiar faiths. Sure, as a Methodist you worship Jesus, read the Bible, and Jesus loves you, but you weren’t getting the full picture. There’s more to it; a better relationship with the Christian God; a better heaven; eternal family… Like some new toothpaste, it’s Methodist Plus.

Maybe I’m way off on this but it seems to me the LDS faith is smartly made to be competitive.

Loon:

who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested

Please do; I think this forum would benefit by a Mormon or two.

EdipisReks:

i find them irritating, especially when members of the clergy visits every month despite having been told to stay the **** away.

Tell them you’re gay. That works like a charm.

SezMe:

What, you're saying the average-sized Mormon family is statistically the same as all of the USA. Got evidence?

I think you’re right. It’s more than a stereotype. From:

http://governor.utah.gov/dea/ERG/ERG2004/08PersIncome.pdf

Utah has the youngest population, as well as the largest family size in the nation.

Not direct evidence but Utah is around 80% LDS.

Edited by Darat: 

Edited for breach of Rule 8.

 

[cbish]

Scott,

We've had several Mormon threads here but I believe it was before your time. I believe the last mormon thread was yours last year when you brought up the book, Under the Banner of Heaven.

Randfan is a ferrel mormon as well as Michael Redman. Me, I'm not mormon but all of my wife's family is. We've had some excellent discussions and people have been very helpful in providing coping skills.

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Scott,

We've had several Mormon threads here but I believe it was before your time. I believe the last mormon thread was yours last year when you brought up the book, Under the Banner of Heaven.

I lurked here for quite a while and do remember a few topics on the LDS faith, but I was not the one who created the Under the Banner of Heaven thread . Searching… It was Marc.

Randfan is a ferrel mormon as well as Michael Redman. Me, I'm not mormon but all of my wife's family is. We've had some excellent discussions and people have been very helpful in providing coping skills.

My father in-law was a bishop and I've had a bit of a different experience. I love my in-laws like family and we respect each other greatly, but I think we all see the LDS religion as just too risky of a topic to discuss, save for the occasional (and appreciated) attempts at consoling during a crisis. In fact it has seemed to me, perhaps incorrectly, that debate and confrontation is to be left to the missionaries, if at all.

I'd simply like to see the LDS faith discussed more (it surprised me that little to no mention of there conference could be found on the forums I frequent, or the news). As I’ve expressed, I have a kind of pragmatic hope for the religion.

 

[cbish]

Scott wrote:

My father in-law was a bishop and I've had a bit of a different experience. I love my in-laws like family and we respect each other greatly, but I think we all see the LDS religion as just too risky of a topic to discuss

I've had the exact same experiences. My wife is the only person on her paternal side (out of 100+ people) who is not active. Prior to meeting my wife, I had no experience with the LDS. It was very trying and difficult the first half dozen years or so, but I have a pretty good understanding based on observation and my own hypothesis about the church.

One thing I have always found interesting, though, is how ex-mormons, no matter how critical they become of the church, will defend it. Randfan and I have agreed that there is a "fondness" for the church that is still entrenched in the mormon psyche. I have witnessed on the board as I have accused Randfan, and he admitted some truth to it, that he can be somewhat of an apologist. My wife, and a close friend, are the same way.

I've never witnessed this with other denominations. From my experiences, when someone leaves 'the church', it's usually a bad divorce. With mormons, even if they are completely inactive and rejectful of it's teaching, I find there's always the ....."yeah, but"....

I find this odd.

 

[sackett]

LDS as seen from close aboard

It's good to hear some voices from the inside of Mormonism. I've often wondered what rewards believers of any denomination could possibly find in their cults, in particular LDS. It lacks just about everything you'd want in a religion. It has no poetry, no charisma, no glamour, no spectacle, and surely the dullest succession of prophets the world has ever seen. (Well, maybe I should qualify that in the case of J. Smith, who appears to have been a lot of fun, a genial con man who could wrangle some high times in just about any circumstances.) Now I understand LDS better: it's comforting to be an insider, to be accepted just as you are, as long as you say you believe. Not all protestant cults are like that.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds. Perhaps there's a meta-Mormonism, a theology that explains all that stuff away? Or maybe most Saints just can't be bothered with that dullest of holy books, the Book of Mormon?

Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Seems to me that what you in the know liked best about LDS is the extended family social network.

It is precisely that role that I feel is most important for any church . It is the aspect I am saddest to see being lost from much of western society as traditional religion declines.

I can't help wondering how much of what goes on at this board is born out of a desire for just such a shared network.

(I see nothing at all wrong with that by the way, so long as we don't lose sight of the primary aims of the board itself. It's a plus, not a minus.)

 

[cbish]

sackett & soapy sam,

I think you're both on to something.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds

Seems to me that what you in the know liked best about LDS is the extended family social network.

This is a point that also fascinated me when I first met my wife. Mormons are extremely gregarious.......with, and only with, other mormons. One criticism I've had of the church is that they are isolationists. Extreme isolationists IMO. I think the reason is, is because mormons are constantly seeking validation. How could anyone whose educated and reasonable believe that dribble? Easy! Surround yourself with people who are desirous of the same things you are and develop you own 'mutual masturbation society'.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?

No, living prophets are a bad thing.

 

[sackett]

Good point, T Boxer

I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?
No, living prophets are a bad thing.

Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.

 

[TeaBag420]

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

DUMBASS. Perhaps they had medals from the LAST TIME THEY SAVED YOUR SORRY ASSES, IN A LITTLE ENGAGEMENT CALLED WORLD WAR I. If your father was really the retart you present him as, you have my sincere condolences.

Or perhaps Nicaragua, Cuba, or the Philippines.

And you have to admit, a couple of our generals were pretty good at their jobs. Patton and Eisenhower come to mind. As well as one of yours, MacArthur.

Your anti-American comment has been noted.

 

[TeaBag420]

Re: LDS as seen from close aboard

Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

 

[TeaBag420]

Re: Good point, T Boxer

Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.

Most new religions (and all religions are new at one time or another) are simply thinly disguised excuses for pedophilia.