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The "God Spot"

senorpogo

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senorpogo
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1860873,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=18

Brain scans of nuns have revealed intricate neural circuits that flicker into life when they feel the presence of God.

The images suggest that feelings of profound joy and union with a higher being that accompany religious experiences are the culmination of ramped-up electrical activity in parts of the brain.

The scans were taken as nuns relived intense religious experiences. They showed a surge in neural activity in regions of the brain that govern feelings of peace, happiness and self-awareness. Psychologists at the University of Montreal say the research, which appears in the journal Neuroscience Letters, was not intended to confirm or deny the existence of God, but set out to examine how the brain behaves during profound religious experiences.
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The article suggests that the experience originated as the result of brain activity. If that's an accurate quote, then that's pretty poor science, IMHO - because it is equally plausible that an external stimuli was responsible for the brain activity. (In fact, I believe I recall that most brain activity is a result of external stimuli.)

Further, the nuns being measured were asked to remember religious experiences - measurements weren't taken during an experience, which would have been far more meaningful. Citing activity during a revisited memory as evidence of the origin of an experience is shaky ground to stand on while drawing conclusions.

Color me unimpressed. :)
 
i wonder how these changes during "religious experiences" compare to those changes experienced under meditation......

For decades, researchers at the National Institutes of Health, the University of Massachusetts, and the Mind/Body Medical Institute at Harvard University have sought to document how meditation enhances the qualities companies need in their human capital: sharpened intuition, steely concentration, and plummeting stress levels. What's different today is groundbreaking research showing that when people such as Tuzman meditate, they alter the biochemistry of their brains. The evolution of powerful mind-monitoring technologies has also enabled scientists to scan the minds of meditators on a microscopic scale, revealing fascinating insights about the plasticity of the mind and meditation's ability to sculpt it.

Some of those insights have emerged in the lab of Richard Davidson, a professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Throughout his career, Davidson has pondered why people react so differently to the same stressful situations, and for the past 20 years he has been conducting experiments to find out. With the blessing of the Dalai Lama, who is supporting U.S. neuroscientists in their quest to crack the mysteries of meditation, Davidson has been placing electrodes on meditating Buddhist monks as they sit on his lab floor watching different visual stimuli -- including disturbing images of war -- flash on a screen. Davidson and his team then observe the monks as they meditate while ensconced in the clanking, coffin-like tubes of MRI machines.

What the researchers see are brains unlike any they have observed elsewhere. The monks' left prefrontal cortexes -- the area associated with positive emotion -- are far more active than in nonmeditators' brains. In other words, he says, the monks' meditation practice, which changes their neural physiology, enables them to respond with equanimity to sources of stress. Meditation doesn't lobotomize meditators; it simply allows them to detach from their emotional reactions so they can respond appropriately.
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http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_35/b3897439.htm

And the conclusion of the article?

The point is: Don't just do something -- sit there.
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genius :)
 
This has interesting ramifications for the work of Dr. Michael Persinger. He places everything in the temporal lobes, if I understand right.

As an aside, I wonder if any amount neuroscience could make a skeptic out of a believer. Is it like evolution to the creationists -- evidence doesn’t matter?
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
This has interesting ramifications for the work of Dr. Michael Persinger. He places everything in the temporal lobes, if I understand right.

As an aside, I wonder if any amount neuroscience could make a skeptic out of a believer. Is it like evolution to the creationists -- evidence doesn’t matter?
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It's hard to see how the neuroscience would engage with the belief. That is, once you've swallowed the camel of God's existence, why would you strain at the gnats of God-caused brain-activities? So you can see "God's footsteps in the brain"--so what? My guess is that believers will be likely to see this as evidence of God as much as anything.

People know that taking certain drugs tends to cause experiences that seem "mystical" in nature: the fact that merely disturbing the chemical balance of the brain induces a "mystical" feeling--reliably and repeatably--doesn't seem to dissuade any believer from the authenticity of that "mystical" insight.
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
This has interesting ramifications for the work of Dr. Michael Persinger. He places everything in the temporal lobes, if I understand right.

As an aside, I wonder if any amount neuroscience could make a skeptic out of a believer. Is it like evolution to the creationists -- evidence doesn’t matter?
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Yoink said:
It's hard to see how the neuroscience would engage with the belief. That is, once you've swallowed the camel of God's existence, why would you strain at the gnats of God-caused brain-activities? So you can see "God's footsteps in the brain"--so what? My guess is that believers will be likely to see this as evidence of God as much as anything.

People know that taking certain drugs tends to cause experiences that seem "mystical" in nature: the fact that merely disturbing the chemical balance of the brain induces a "mystical" feeling--reliably and repeatably--doesn't seem to dissuade any believer from the authenticity of that "mystical" insight.
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Cool. So this is how multi-quote works. :)

Just a gentle reminder - seeing activity in different parts of the brain while recalling different kinds of experiences is nothing new. All it really proves is that the brain is the seat of memory, emotion and intellect.

Having said that, a great deal of the brain's activity does come from external stimuli. There won't be a strong argument against "God's footsteps" until science is able to replicate these experiences reliably and substantially accurately by artificial means.

Even then the question arises "Well, what created the stimuli when you weren't around to do it?".

A more interesting outcome would be a quantifiable inability to re-create such an experience by artificial means.
 
Addicted to Religion

This confirms my hypothesis that religious ecstasy is comparable to drug addiction. Nuns and monks are like denizens of opium dens*, denizens who's only real mission in life is to keep goosing their pleasure centers. They are parasites on society.

ETA: *The Dali Lama included.
 
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Mr. Scott said:
This confirms my hypothesis that religious ecstasy is comparable to drug addiction. Nuns and monks are like denizens of opium dens*, denizens who's only real mission in life is to keep goosing their pleasure centers. They are parasites on society.

ETA: *The Dali Lama included.
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How does this confirm your hypthosis, please? Evidence?
 
So, now ask the nuns to remember their orgasms. Or the sense of acomplishment they felt in response to some other action- a Turkey dinner, or trying on a new cassock. Kicking a field goal?...
 
Further, the nuns being measured were asked to remember religious experiences - measurements weren't taken during an experience, which would have been far more meaningful.
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I've seen similar studies that did exactly that, with similar results.

And yes, believers tend to say that this is evidence of God. They say that God was very wise and built into our brains the ability to experience His presence.


Hey. Who knows? It could be true. After all, he did put the rivers right where the major cities would need them, didn't he?
 
This is pure speculation, but I think that meditation of any sort, can give this euphoretic feeling, and it probably will be shown to be activity in some part of the brain. This is possibly developed as a defense, or as a mental mechanism evolved for solving problems.
Speculation, as I said.
 
The lama's teapot

andyandy said:
and what's your beef with the lama? :)
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A friend of mine this year went to hear a talk by the lama. He expected to be enlightened or at least hear something interesting. The lama, IIRC and forgive any paraphrasing, suggested that the people who suffered in the giant tsunami of last year deserved it because they brought bad karma from their previous lives.

This gigantic crock of rule eight caused my friend to be disgusted with the lama and regret that he went out of his way to hear him. I, too, lost respect for the lama after hearing this.

I'm developing my own religion, and fully expect to enjoy addiction to the ecstasy it will inevitably produce. Whenever someone suffers any natural disaster, I will claim that the teapot circling Pluto is angry that it's status as a planet was revoked and is taking revenge on all mankind.

Aaaah...that feels good :p . Scan my brain. Now!
 
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Meadmaker said:
I've seen similar studies that did exactly that, with similar results.

And yes, believers tend to say that this is evidence of God. They say that God was very wise and built into our brains the ability to experience His presence.


Hey. Who knows? It could be true. After all, he did put the rivers right where the major cities would need them, didn't he?
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Why so he did! Hard to argue with that sort of logic isn't it?
 
Addiction hypothesis of religious ecstasy

jmercer said:
Yep.

How does it support your hypothesis? Specifically? :)
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This touches on one of my back burner thought projects -- the idea that religious ecstasy can be addictive.

I think anything that tickles the pleasure center has the potential to be addictive. There was even a study published recently that found some people were addicted to sun tanning -- and this was a scientific study that used the clinical definition of addiction and was supported by actual blood chemistry and brain scan measurements IIRC.

I work with a Pentecostal who carries a bible around at all times. My understanding is that a big part of the Pentecostal experience is the X-treme displays of religious ecstasy. It's not a big jump to conclude that those who live by and regularly experience such activities could easily become clinically addicted. My coworker, in fact, is a really grumpy guy, and I believe fits the pattern of an addict who's only happy when on the stuff.

Before I read this God Spot thread I'd been working on the religious-ecstasy-as-addiction-hypothesis, and finding that specific brain activity patterns during religious experinences or its memories of such bumps the possible validity of my hypothesis up a notch IMO. It's not a slam dunk, just another inch closer to validation.

If one can get funds to a study whether or not tanning can be clinically addictive, it sure would seem fundable to study the addictive properties of religion. Seems like a neat project for a psychology student.
 
Surreal lama

Soapy Sam said:
The Dali Lama?

How surreal can you be?
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That must be your way of asking "how wrong can you be?" Or a rhetorical way of saying that you think I'm very wrong.

In any case, yes, the Dali Lama, and I can be very surreal (even when I'm right).

I feel I've found evidence that religious people can become addicted to religious ecstasy, so why should the lama be exempt?
 
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