The General Native American Discussion Thread

[L.Y.S.]

I've been hesitant to make this topic. I knew it would require lots of thought and time. It is controversial subject in America (I am sure in Canada as well). And while most Americans are fair people, many seek to hold back progress and keep our nation in darkness.

I beleaguer the forum with questions about the poor treatment of Native Americans and the horrendous living conditions on reservations. I receive close to no answer other than the occasional "it just happened", or more commonly "they just died out". Both answers seem inadequate, ignorant, and smug. When I attempt to address this, people disquiet me or shut me up. People preach about how great America is, but then when the subject of Native Americans arises, they grow silent. On occasion I will hear “America is for everyone, there shouldn’t be a race to this or that land.” This is true, but this is not what is in debate right now.

I have but a few questions for my audience.

1.) Why do we continue to abuse Native Americans and not allocate funding for infrastructure projects and improve their standard of living? Presently, Native Americans have some of the worst living conditions in the western hemisphere. They have the highest number of preventable diseases and the highest rate of unemployment in the U.S. On some reservations unemployment reaches 80%.

2.) Why can't Native Americans form actual nations that report directly to D.C.? I am not talking about the third world reservations (without food, drink, or sewage) which report to states. I am talking about nations that operate like states with representation in congress.

3.) Why can't nations like these co-exist peacefully with America? Most Native Americans don't hate America. They hate the poor treatment they receive from the American government. They hate the neglect, the abuse, and the repression of their culture. In most reservations, they can't learn their own languages. The federal government allocates them funds towards education and by law English must be taught. If they wish to teach their own language, they must find some way to fund it privately. Most people on reservations don't have jobs mind you...

A few questions come to mind:

A.) Is there a good reason for this not to happen?

B.) Why do they not deserve our investment after what they have suffered?

C.) Are we afraid that this will undermine our sovereignty over America?​

4.) Are we willing to give semi-viable regions of the U.S. in order to allow economic growth in these new nations? In short; are we willing to give regions with the potential to support growing populations and trade?

I know this topic will be controversial and turn some heads, but it is about time some one address this. It is time for the abuse of indigenous Americans to end. They deserve to be treated like all other Americans. This is no longer 1890. We are no longer waging Indian Wars. There are no more Comanche or Sioux horse riders going against American cavalry regiments. It's time to end this bit of our dark history and move forward.

 

[seayakin]

1.) Why do we continue to abuse Native Americans and not allocate funding for infrastructure projects and improve their standard of living? Presently, Native Americans have some of the worst living conditions in the western hemisphere. They have the highest number of preventable diseases and the highest rate of unemployment in the U.S. On some reservations unemployment reaches 80%.

This is an extremely complex issue. The question also implies that "we" whoever "we" are have a unified position on this. Like with African Americans, there are people who support laws like affirmative action and those who don't. This is akin to the question "Are you still beating your wife?"

2.) Why can't Native Americans form actual nations that report directly to D.C.? I am not talking about the third world reservations (without food, drink, or sewage) which report to states. I am talking about nations that operate like states with representation in congress.

Technically they do. Here is a reasonable although simplified primer (http://www.airpi.org/pubs/indinsov.html). The sovereign status of tribes has its origins in the fact that generally (with many significant exceptions) the British dealt with the local tribes as sovereign nations. The U.S. originally continued this policy and negotiated with the tribes through the War Department. Congress in the late 19th made a decision that it had the authority to pass laws over the tribes (I forget the date and specific law). States never technically had any control over federally recognized tribes. However, there are a number of tribes that claim they deserve federal recognition but for a variety of reasons have not been federally recognized. In New England, the early colonies negotiated with a number of tribes setting up state reservations and include groups like the Narragansett, Wampanoag, Pequot, Passamaquody, and others. Some of these tribes sought federal recognition to gain access to the funds available to American Indians in the 1970s and reassert self-determination.

3.) Why can't nations like these co-exist peacefully with America? Most Native Americans don't hate America. They hate the poor treatment they receive from the American government. They hate the neglect, the abuse, and the repression of their culture. In most reservations, they can't learn their own languages. The federal government allocates them funds towards education and by law English must be taught. If they wish to teach their own language, they must find some way to fund it privately. Most people on reservations don't have jobs mind you...

A few questions come to mind:

A.) Is there a good reason for this not to happen?

B.) Why do they not deserve our investment after what they have suffered?

C.) Are we afraid that this will undermine our sovereignty over America?

By and large we do co-exist peacefully. However, I completely agree that generally American Indians living on the reservation often live in poorer conditions. There are few exceptions with a few tribes that have made significant amounts of money through casino operations but it hardly is a panacea and does cause other problems.

4.) Are we willing to give semi-viable regions of the U.S. in order to allow economic growth in these new nations? In short; are we willing to give regions with the potential to support growing populations and trade?

This is a real problem. Tribes that have achieved some financial stability and resources independent of the federal government often find strong resistence locally to expand their reservation from local groups. Some of it can be racist some of it is due to local towns not wanting land taken out of the tax rolls.

Laws related to American Indian sovereignty are extremely complex governed by two hundred years of conflicting congressional actions and court precedence.

 

[WildCat]

I know this topic will be controversial and turn some heads, but it is about time some one address this. It is time for the abuse of indigenous Americans to end. They deserve to be treated like all other Americans. This is no longer 1890. We are no longer waging Indian Wars. There are no more Comanche or Sioux horse riders going against American cavalry regiments. It's time to end this bit of our dark history and move forward.

Indians are free to move off the reservation and live anywhere they like, they are full US citizens and can vote in elections and run for office.

 

[chillzero]

Indians are free to move off the reservation and live anywhere they like, they are full US citizens and can vote in elections and run for office.

... seems like you think they should just give up on their heritage, traditions, and how they've been brought up, and just learn to embrace The True American Way of life?

 

[Bikewer]

As some have obviously done. The problem of the essential destruction of an indigenous people's culture is complex and may be more in the realm of psychology than politics.
Obviously, some Amerinds are successfully incorporated into "American" culture and have no such problems. Others report feeling "lost", "disconnected", etc. These are cultures which value traditions and ancestors very highly.
I don't get it, personally... I'm of German descent and feel no urge to don lederhosen and dance the polka to a brass band... But this is not the case with many of these people, often who have had their culture forcibly ripped from them.
The same goes on in Amazonia... Likely in many other areas around the world.

 

[WildCat]

... seems like you think they should just give up on their heritage, traditions, and how they've been brought up, and just learn to embrace The True American Way of life?

I didn't say that at all. I'm just pointing out that they don't have to stay on the reservation, just like a West Virginian doesn't have to stay there and work in a coal mine.

eta: if preserving their heritage and culture is the goal demanding money and assistance from the US government is unlikely to further that. There are certainly problems on the reservations, but by and large the tribes will have to decide how to fix those.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Indians are free to move off the reservation and live anywhere they like, they are full US citizens and can vote in elections and run for office.

So basically as long as they choose to remain Indian and pursue their heritage you will not respect them?

I didn't say that at all. I'm just pointing out that they don't have to stay on the reservation, just like a West Virginian doesn't have to stay there and work in a coal mine.

I expected this sort of ignorant response. You don't have to stay in America if you don't like it. You could always go to Latin America or Africa. Yet you choose to stay here, but it is where you are born. It is the place where your ancestors lived, forged memories, and loved. Do Native Americans not deserve the same right to live in the places they love?

eta: if preserving their heritage and culture is the goal demanding money and assistance from the US government is unlikely to further that. There are certainly problems on the reservations, but by and large the tribes will have to decide how to fix those.

False, it would help them build direly needed infrastructure and improve the standard of living on the reservations. But people like you don't want them to live on reservations. You want them to move off reservations, forget their heritage, and forget that they ever existed. It would make you happy to see the red man go extinct wouldn't it?

 

[WildCat]

So basically as long as they choose to remain Indian and pursue their heritage you will not respect them?

How are they going to "remain Indian" and pursue their heritage while demanding money and assistance from Uncle Sam? Those things come with strings attached.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

... seems like you think they should just give up on their heritage, traditions, and how they've been brought up, and just learn to embrace The True American Way of life?

They have embraced The True American Way of Life...


...hit on 16 and stand on 17.

 

[L.Y.S.]

As some have obviously done. The problem of the essential destruction of an indigenous people's culture is complex and may be more in the realm of psychology than politics.
Obviously, some Amerinds are successfully incorporated into "American" culture and have no such problems. Others report feeling "lost", "disconnected", etc. These are cultures which value traditions and ancestors very highly.
I don't get it, personally... I'm of German descent and feel no urge to don lederhosen and dance the polka to a brass band... But this is not the case with many of these people, often who have had their culture forcibly ripped from them.
The same goes on in Amazonia... Likely in many other areas around the world.

Who are the amerinds you speak of? The ones who feel "successfully incorporated into "American" culture"? I see the vast majority living on the marginal edges of society, living in slums and nearly becoming extinct.

 

[chillzero]

I didn't say that at all. I'm just pointing out that they don't have to stay on the reservation, just like a West Virginian doesn't have to stay there and work in a coal mine.

eta: if preserving their heritage and culture is the goal demanding money and assistance from the US government is unlikely to further that. There are certainly problems on the reservations, but by and large the tribes will have to decide how to fix those.

So ... they don't deserve government money or assistance for basic things like sewage facilities and running water because .... they aren't proper americans? Or what?

 

[L.Y.S.]

How are they going to "remain Indian" and pursue their heritage while demanding money and assistance from Uncle Sam? Those things come with strings attached.

I've already answered this question. This to me is an excuse by the way. We could easily change our laws to fit the needs of the 1.6 million registered Native Americans in this nation. It is not much to ask, other than admitting some deep dark secrets, and taking ownership for the past.

So ... they don't deserve government money or assistance for basic things like sewage facilities and running water because .... they aren't proper americans? Or what?

Seconded

 

[chillzero]

As some have obviously done.

... so they all should?

I come from a country where the native language was outlawed, and the original landowners starved into what amounted to slavery, or out of the country altogether. Culture and heritage, and tradition ... ancestry ... is really important to some people. Others prefer to look forward .Who is to say which is right or wrong? And for this thread, who is to say that one group should be highly discriminated against over the other, simply for those views which tend to arise from internal feelings and experience - not easily changed?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Indians are free to move off the reservation and live anywhere they like, they are full US citizens and can vote in elections and run for office.

This.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I expected this sort of ignorant response. You don't have to stay in America if you don't like it. You could always go to Latin America or Africa. Yet you choose to stay here, but it is where you are born. It is the place where your ancestors lived, forged memories, and loved. Do Native Americans not deserve the same right to live in the places they love?

They have that right now. They can live where ever they want.

 

[L.Y.S.]

This is an extremely complex issue. The question also implies that "we" whoever "we" are have a unified position on this. Like with African Americans, there are people who support laws like affirmative action and those who don't. This is akin to the question "Are you still beating your wife?"

Don't get the latter half of this statement but what does this have to do with actually funding native nations to make sure they have clean water? Affirmative Action is severely different from building a sewage system. Native Americans aren't blacks, and they have been treated a thousand times worse than we ever have. Blacks are a bunch of whining race baggers with rights. The same can't be said about Natives.

Technically they do. Here is a reasonable although simplified primer (http://www.airpi.org/pubs/indinsov.html). The sovereign status of tribes has its origins in the fact that generally (with many significant exceptions) the British dealt with the local tribes as sovereign nations. The U.S. originally continued this policy and negotiated with the tribes through the War Department. Congress in the late 19th made a decision that it had the authority to pass laws over the tribes (I forget the date and specific law). States never technically had any control over federally recognized tribes. However, there are a number of tribes that claim they deserve federal recognition but for a variety of reasons have not been federally recognized. In New England, the early colonies negotiated with a number of tribes setting up state reservations and include groups like the Narragansett, Wampanoag, Pequot, Passamaquody, and others. Some of these tribes sought federal recognition to gain access to the funds available to American Indians in the 1970s and reassert self-determination.

Ok, but most reservations report to their local states, not congress. Why do they not have representation in congress?

By and large we do co-exist peacefully. However, I completely agree that generally American Indians living on the reservation often live in poorer conditions. There are few exceptions with a few tribes that have made significant amounts of money through casino operations but it hardly is a panacea and does cause other problems.

What can we do to fix this and develop some economic opportunities on reservations? In the plains there are some reservations with 80% unemployment. How do you propose we change this?

This is a real problem. Tribes that have achieved some financial stability and resources independent of the federal government often find strong resistence locally to expand their reservation from local groups. Some of it can be racist some of it is due to local towns not wanting land taken out of the tax rolls.

Laws related to American Indian sovereignty are extremely complex governed by two hundred years of conflicting congressional actions and court precedence.

I said "with the potential to support growing populations," not that populations were a prerequisite. There are many unincorporated areas of the United States with a fairly decent ability to support marginal population growth and maintain several hundred thousand residents. This is very true out east and in the south.

I agree with the last half, how do we begin to fix this? How do we begin to recognize their sovereignty and right to this land as partial owners and caretakers? They deserve at least a peace right? Again, why can we not incorporate them into congress?

 

[WildCat]

So ... they don't deserve government money or assistance for basic things like sewage facilities and running water because .... they aren't proper americans? Or what?

They get money for those things already, LYS clearly wants a much deeper involvement in tribal affairs.

 

[WildCat]

Ok, but most reservations report to their local states, not congress. Why do they not have representation in congress?

"report to Congress"? What do you mean by that? Indian reservations are inside Congressional districts.

If you want Indian reservations to get their own Congressional delegation you would need to amend the US Constitution, and that just isn't going to happen. If you are just wondering why there aren't any Indians in Congress it's because none have been elected. However, as it turns out that is not true, as there is currently one NA member of Congress - Rep. Tom Cole. Ben Nighthorse Campbell served as US Senator from Colorado from 1993-2005.

So I don't really see where you're going with this.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

They get money for those things already, LYS clearly wants a much deeper involvement in tribal affairs.

Exactly. American Indians, like all Americans, are free to live wherever they want, and sign up for welfare, foodstamps, rental assistance, and all sorts of other programs, just like every other American.

I'm not sure what the issue is.

 

[WildCat]

I'm not sure what the issue is.

I think LYS wants the Great White Father to step in and show those Indians the proper way to run a reservation.