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The Finsrud machine

Well, there's no proven perpetual motion machine, one would violate extremely well tested and theoretically fundamental physics, and I'm not taking some monkey's page on the Internet as proof.

It's a complicated looking gadget. Are we sure there's no wound spring there providing extra energy longer than most people bother to watch? If the device is sufficiently low-friction it could keep running for a long time once wound up, just like clocks and watches do.

Is there a blueprint allowing anyone to build one?
 
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yes there are complete drawings on the web. I'll try to find them again and post the link. the videos are worth seeing as well.....
 
From what I can see, a ball rolling on such a track has a very minute amount of friction to overcome -- hence only a small amount of energy input is required to keep it going. I'm wondering if perhaps some sort of barometric pressure spring is being used. As the air pressure changes it might put a small amount of stored energy into a spring mechanism that in turn can put it into the machine. The moving parts appear to be quite massive and would maintain a high degree of inertia in their back and forth motion -- coupled with some sort of barometric spring timed just right could keep the works going a long time. Forever if the pressure keeps changing often enough.
 
haven't refound the link to the drawings yet but will keep looking. Gotta admit tho..... this is a pretty cool device. The big spring in the center is a bit suspect... as is the motion of the pendulums.... would like to see a comparision over time of the height of the spring..... and a look under the base.
 
Just thinking said:
From what I can see, a ball rolling on such a track has a very minute amount of friction to overcome -- hence only a small amount of energy input is required to keep it going. I'm wondering if perhaps some sort of barometric pressure spring is being used. As the air pressure changes it might put a small amount of stored energy into a spring mechanism that in turn can put it into the machine. The moving parts appear to be quite massive and would maintain a high degree of inertia in their back and forth motion -- coupled with some sort of barometric spring timed just right could keep the works going a long time. Forever if the pressure keeps changing often enough.
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actually on another web site someone calculated the energy required. It was non-trivial (however I am not qualified to support the calculation.) The inventor has not claimed perpetual motion; he is an artist; and this alone makes the device suspect. I started this thread not so much as a perpetual motion advocate as someone dying of curiousity as to how it works........
 
Topspy said:
actually on another web site someone calculated the energy required. It was non-trivial (however I am not qualified to support the calculation.) The inventor has not claimed perpetual motion; he is an artist; and this alone makes the device suspect. I started this thread not so much as a perpetual motion advocate as someone dying of curiousity as to how it works........
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Well, unless I'm mistaken, there are clocks that run on barometric pressure changes -- so incorporating energy from pressure is not impossible. Plus, the device was in a vaulted room within another clear enclosure. Perhaps a forced pressure differential can be established that a person might not notice when entering. Close the vaulted door and allow a difference of pressure to exist between the machine and outside its housing for a few minutes and it might get all the energy it needs to go for another few hours.

Anyway, it's just a thought as to how energy might be put into the device that the average Joe might not consider.
 
as you can see if you watch the video for awhile, the top of the inner enclosure is open (the cameraman goes over the top and inside a bit.) I did clock and watch repair as a hobby for many years and am very aware of the 'atmos clock' which works on pressure differential. As I said, I am not qualified to do the math here, but I can assure you that we are speaking orders of magnitude in the energy required.
 
Topspy said:
As I said, I am not qualified to do the math here, but I can assure you that we are speaking orders of magnitude in the energy required.
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It depends. The machine may have a lot more energy than an atmospheric clock, but that can be input when the machine is set up. The question is how much power does it take to keep it going continuously once its already running. The losses may not be as high proportionally, and the volume probably would probably be a lot larger on this machine, if that's how it worked.
 
Zombified said:
... The question is how much power does it take to keep it going continuously once its already running...
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And there's the rub. A steel ball on a rail needs very little energy to keep moving, as the contacting surfaces are incredibly small. I have many times used similar set-ups in physics classes to measure accelerations, and the ball can achieve reasonable velocities with an almost imperceptible ramp angle. A close examination of this device shows the ramp actually tilting (bending? -- yet another spring?) slightly as the ball goes around. Such tilting could easily keep the ball going as it would give it whatever energy was lost through friction. Pendulum motion, as you may be aware, requires very little energy input to keep going, and the more massive it is, coupled with little friction, can appear for long periods of time to mimic perpetual motion. The large moving masses, large springs and rail are all pendulums of a sort -- not to mention the rolling ball itself (as a type of conical pendulum).
 
Just thinking said:
From what I can see, a ball rolling on such a track has a very minute amount of friction to overcome -- hence only a small amount of energy input is required to keep it going. I'm wondering if perhaps some sort of barometric pressure spring is being used. As the air pressure changes it might put a small amount of stored energy into a spring mechanism that in turn can put it into the machine. The moving parts appear to be quite massive and would maintain a high degree of inertia in their back and forth motion -- coupled with some sort of barometric spring timed just right could keep the works going a long time. Forever if the pressure keeps changing often enough.
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What a really interesting idea. Wouldn't it be neat to make a grandfather clock powered by air pressure changes. The reservoir could be built into the case. Haven't done the math but it seems within reason and would be a way cool product.
 
I think it's really neat looking! It's not perpetual motion, but it's just neat.

And think about the energy dissapated by the sound it makes... lots of clacking and stuff.
 
How much energy do you suppose that big spring in the center of the machine can store?
 
The ball rolls past what look like horseshoe magnets, but does not seem to be affected by them. If they are actually magnets and are interacting with the ball I would expect to see the balls speed change as it passed them. So what are they doing there?

IXP
 
roger said:
How much energy do you suppose that big spring in the center of the machine can store?
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Plenty, especially if it extends through the column all the way to the base.

IXP
 
Ririon said:
He does in fact claim perpetual motion on his own website. He says it started in 1996 and will stop "when it gnaws itself to bits, some time in the future." Maybe that page hasn't been updated since 1996, either...
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Yet on the website in the OP it says:

Reidar says the machine does stop on occasions but that this is not on a daily basis. To start the machine the pendulums are swung by hand, this puts an external input energy into the system, given that the machine does stop this means it is not over 100% efficient.
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The first bit sounds like a lot like an artist self-promoting.

Nifty gadget, whatever the case!
 
Zombified said:
It's a complicated looking gadget.
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I'll take your word for it. So were Rube Goldberg machines. :)

To add: The drinking bird comes to mind. That keeps going and going, also. And so does that solar powered vane doohickey in that glass enclosure. And so can you make some device run and run if it is being fed water by capillary action and allow it to dry out at the other end of the wick. None of these devices are impressive in the sense they only have enough power to power themselves, really...and that's it. All they are good for is for people to stare at them and wonder how they work...if they have hidden magnets in them, or something. But they don't have enough residual energy to power anything else.
 
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