The energy never dies argument

[KelvinG]

I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!

 

[Kopji]

I dunno either. They are sort of saying that if I throw a log on the fire, a tree will appear in heaven somewhere.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

I'm not a scientist, but here is what logic tells me:

Energy, in the human body, is in the form of bio-chemical reactions, which continue to require fuel to occur. This is why we eat. The energy is stored in our cells unless we actively use that energy.

When we die, the energy is still stored in our cells and is then transferred to whatever biological organism decideds to eat out at the human-buffet.

The energy doesn't disappear, it is transferred to that which causes our decay.

 

[Phil]

I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!

I'm no genius either, but lots of different types of energy are generated in the universe that aren't equated with a soul. I would ask these people what makes them think that the energy released at death (if in fact it happens that way) would somehow retain awareness, or consciousness (i.e. experience an 'afterlife').

 

[tdn]

Energy, in the human body, is in the form of bio-chemical reactions, which continue to require fuel to occur. This is why we eat.

Exactly. This is why we give death row inmates a last meal -- so their souls have enough energy to go to hell.

Honestly, you could counter it with "What kind of energy is it? Strong? Weak? Electromagnetic? Pray tell, would it be gravitational? Are there any instruments that can measure it? Is it partical or wave energy?"

Guaranteed, this will not shut them up. They will probably counter with one of two things:

a) "Science can't measure it. It's outside the realm of science." Then they will go into some diatribe about how a simple flashlight would have seemed like magic 200 years ago.

b) They will go into the bit about the human soul weighing 21 ounces. Show them the snopes link debunking this. I'd get you the link, but I think I'm coming down with something. I should go lie down.

Ta.

 

[Iacchus]

Ever see a corpse with a personality? So what is it about consciousness if it isn't the means by which we define reailty? How would we know we exist without it? Is it possible that when we pass on it goes on to define a new reality?

 

[fishbob]

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

How about this:
Each organism is an organized collection of nutrients, some water, and a few minerals. The 'energy' of the living organism is chemical. We eat, we digest, we oxidize. When we die, the organization ceases to function and falls apart. No more eating, no more digestion, no more energy.

 

[Atlas]

I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.

I would like to begin addressing this topic somewhat sensibly. Then veer off.

In early religions, among the First Gods were Earth and Sky. They were opposites and made for each other or by the other. As opposites they can represent the realms of Change and the Ideal or evil and good or corrupt and incorrupt. Human beings like to think of themselves as children of the sky god rather than merely bubbles on the scum of Earthly existence.

We seem susceptible to the idea of a sky god. The real world is filled with danger and the unknown and the Sky god watches over all holding up the sun and the moon and granting food for another day. When presented warmly, in sunshine and rain, we know He's on our side.

My own metaphor would be a Sky god who is like a storm cloud which drops little tornados all the way to the earth. These tornados pick up some of the earth and roar through creation and time redistributing nature with glee. So the tornado as "life", the animating influence, is from the sky god and the earth and water components that make us up is from the Earth god. Our physical attributes and our thoughts and past are suspended in the vortex.

When we die our Earth components go back to the Earth to be reused and our tornado animating force is pulled back into the sky. Now many of you are wondering if the tornado lives in the cloud forevermore. No - the sky god redistributes all that it is just as the Earth god redistributes her atoms into rocks, trees, water, fish, air, birds, and people. So each tornado forms as required from the confluence of all, even the spent, winds - we are sourced and sinked into that confluence of sky god mystery storm.

This is all proven by what science might call - the "undiscovered energy" theory. Did I say proven? Well it will be proven when they discover the undiscovered energy. C'mon, have a little faith, otherwise you're stuck will a failure mindset.... how unscientific and self-defeating is it to be trying to discover the "nonexistent energy"? Besides, I doubt they're even looking for vortex energy; mysterious, spiritual, vortex energy. I think that explains why nobody has found it. And since nobody has discovered the undiscovered energy it kinda proves my theory.

So yah, if I'm choosing what energy leaves the body at death, I'm voting for Sky god, storm cloud, tornado animating, mysterious vortex, aka. the undiscovered energy. It's really the only thing that makes sense. Don't you see, to escape the inevitabilities inherent in my metaphor you would have to deny the reality of the sky god. AND YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT!

Oh yah, anybody who pushes a fire god metaphor is, IMHO, a crank.

 

[Suggestologist]

I'm constantly hearing the argument from those who believe in an afterlife that since the body contains energy, when the body dies energy is released. Since this energy doesn't die, what becomes of it.
To them, this is possible evidence that a "soul" or "spirit" survives the death of the physical body.

I realized that I've never had a decent rebuttal to this line of thinking. Now, that doesn't mean I believe what they are saying, but I don't know really know what to counter it either.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me. Is energy indeed released from the body when you die? If so, how much and in what form? Is it true that this energy never dies?

These may sound like simplistic questions, but I've never professed to be a genius in the area of psychics and biology.
Come on smart people! Help me out!

When used with reference to the mind, energy is a metaphor. It is related to metaphors like "blow off steam", "blowing a fuse", and so on. Acting as if energy of the mind is analogous to energy of physical systems, leads to overextended metaphors of "the energy has to go somewhere".

But what people sometimes don're realize quickly is that there are alternatives to "blowing off steam" that take care of the "energy" without "releasing" it.

 

[evildave]

The way it was 'explained' to me in another forum was that:

1. Your brain emits electromagnetic radiation.

2. Electromagnetic radiation radiates outwards at the speed of light.

3. Therefore, your every thought will radiate forever into the universe.

Oh, how pretty!

Never mind that the signal-to-noise ratio for that radiation will be utter garbage, and that the EM that escapes your skull is little better than noise its self compared to what is going on inside the head to begin with.

http://vv.carleton.ca/~neil/neural/neuron-a.html
Memories are clearly stored in physical structures. In the interconnection of neurons, and in proteins that shape these connections. These define how signals are processed in the brain (i.e., how you react to and "think" about things).

So, we have "signal processing and computation" or "signal processing and computation PLUS invisible and undetectable 'mystical energy' that has no apparent effect, either".

The simpler of the two seems to be the former.

 

[Martin]

Computer.

Sledgehammer.

Energy release.

Where do all the programs go? Silicon heaven?

 

[rustypouch]

It is true that energy never dies.

The first law of thermodynamics (simplified): Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

But where I think much of the confusion lies is that in this case, a very strict definition of energy is used, the following being a basic one, with som etypes of energy.

Energy: the capacity to do work (or produce heat).

Kinetic energy: the energy of motion.
Thermal energy: submicroscopic particles in motion.
Mechanical energy: macroscopic objects in motion.
Electrical energy: movement of electrons through a conductor.
Sound energy: compression/expansion of spaces between molecules.

Potential energy: the energy of position; stored energy.
Chemical potential energy: position of electrons relative to atomic nuclei in bound atoms.
Gravitational energy: position of an object in a gravitational field.
Electrostatic energy: relative position of charged particles.


My guess is that people putting forth this argument tend to be uneducated in physics(BTW, I am not trying to be disrespectful) and don't know the difference between the scientific use of the word energy, as is used in the laws of thermodynamics, and other uses of the word, such as a dynamic quality <narrative energy>.

Disclaimer: I am not any type of scientician, just curious about such matters.

 

[hammegk]

My guess is that people putting forth this argument tend to be uneducated in physics(BTW, I am not trying to be disrespectful) and don't know the difference between the scientific use of the word energy, as is used in the laws of thermodynamics, and other uses of the word, such as a dynamic quality <narrative energy>.

Or you might equally likely discover that our physics geniuses here (and we have a few) have no more idea how to define "energy" than you do.

Thanks for listing nine of the forms it shows itself as.

 

[Fendetestas]

Sure the body needs energy to function, and of course we get this energy with the food we eat.

The reactions that take place in our body are what we call metabolism. There are two kinds: anabolism and catabolism. Basically, the difference is that we use one of them to break the nutrients in simpler molecules and get energy and the other to make more complex molecules, i.e., to build our muscles...

The second kind needs of course the energy generated in the first. But this energy is not a magical thing that floats out of our body when we die. Basically, we store the energy we need in molecules called ATP. How can we store energy? The answer is that these molecules have three very energetic chemical links that release a lot of energy when broken. They are the cellular equivalent of the coal we burn in a thermal plant, for example. This process takes place in our cells whenever we need to perform a certain task, be it running, jumping or simply pumping blood through our veins.

When we die we stop running, jumping and pumping blood, all the chemical reactions in our cells stop. This means we no longer break this links to free the energy stored there... the energy doesn't go anywhere and of course it doesn't disappear or float away to a magical land. Of course after we are dead there are several organisms happy to "process" our body and use us as their own energy source, but that's another story...

 

[Fendetestas]

Or you might equally likely discover that our physics geniuses here (and we have a few) have no more idea how to define "energy" than you do.

Thanks for listing nine of the forms it shows itself as.

I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is. In it, the concept is introduced with a metaphor that involves Dennis the Menace and some blocks...

It is important to realize that in physics today we have no knowledge of what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount. It is not that way. However there are formulas for calculating some numerical quantity and when we add it all together it gives (...) always the same number. It is an abstract thing that tells us the mechanism or the reasons for the various formulas.

That is, energy is not made of anything really. It is just a number that doesn't change whatever we do to a system (ans its surroundigs) It can be distributed in different ways (chemical, nuclear, mechanical...) but if we add all of the contributtions we always get the same number.

 

[UserGoogol]

These sorts of people tend to assume the existance of some sort of "spirtual energy."

Of course, (1) there's no such thing and (2) even if it did, spiritual energy could be just be transferred into heat energy like most energy ends up being.

Unless... Unless spiritual energy IS heat energy. ALL HAIL THE DIVINE SPIRITUAL SPACE HEATER!!!

(I'm sure some kook out there has managed to equate heat energy with spiritual energy.)

 

[Iacchus]

It is true that energy never dies.

The first law of thermodynamics (simplified): Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

So where was all this energy before the Big Bang? Is it possible that this could be the very thing we refer to as immaterial, thus leaving us with the notion that God existed prior to the Big Bang?

 

[c4ts]

Of course heat energy is spiritual energy. What did you think them hell fires was made of?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Let's say the soul energy does leave my body when I die. 21 grams and all that. I still have two questions:

1. How was it organized into my soul while I was still alive?

2. How does it remain coherently organized after it leaves my body? In particular, how does it prevent itself from simply radiating in all directions?

~~ Paul

 

[hammegk]

I recommend the 4th chapter of the wonderful Feynman Lectures on Physics to anyone that wishes to know what energy is. In it, the concept is introduced with a metaphor that involves Dennis the Menace and some blocks...

I've read it, thanks, and find it a useful analogy. Of course it doesn't even attempt an answer.

And note I have no more idea what spiritual energy could possibly mean than anyone else, nor do I posit something (usually) called a soul.