Teens and "life without parole"

Bikewer

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Short segment on NPR's Weekend Edition this morning about the fact that the US criminal justice system is unique among "civilized" nations for sentencing juvenile offenders to "life without the possibility of parole".

They profiled a young woman (now 34) who was sentenced at 16 under the felony murder provision; her boyfriend had murdered a rival gang member while she was present.

Now 34, she has a GED, is enrolled in college courses, and is part of a mentoring program for gang members. Hispanic, she came from an area where you had little choice but to be in a gang...
So, for poor decisions (perhaps not even poor...) made as a 15-year-old, she's now in prison for life.

There are legislations pending in some states that would allow judicial review of these sentences after varying periods, usually 10 years. This seems only sensible to me, especially since we now understand that the juvenile brain is in a process of development and is often subject to poor decision-making and choices.
Still, they spoke with an "anti" type who maintains the "if you do the crime, do the time" philosophy; that juveniles who commit "adult" crimes should be subject to adult punishments.
Seems to me in many cases to be both a waste of a young life and a considerable chunk of the taxpayer's money.
 
Why do you want to put murderers back on the streets? Murderers who want to gang-murder and serial-kill (and maybe even cannibalize!) wholesome, decent, God-fearing American children! Why do you hate America and its children!? You're making the baby Jesus cry! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!???
 
Short segment on NPR's Weekend Edition this morning about the fact that the US criminal justice system is unique among "civilized" nations for sentencing juvenile offenders to "life without the possibility of parole".

They profiled a young woman (now 34) who was sentenced at 16 under the felony murder provision; her boyfriend had murdered a rival gang member while she was present.

Now 34, she has a GED, is enrolled in college courses, and is part of a mentoring program for gang members. Hispanic, she came from an area where you had little choice but to be in a gang...
So, for poor decisions (perhaps not even poor...) made as a 15-year-old, she's now in prison for life.

There are legislations pending in some states that would allow judicial review of these sentences after varying periods, usually 10 years. This seems only sensible to me, especially since we now understand that the juvenile brain is in a process of development and is often subject to poor decision-making and choices.
Still, they spoke with an "anti" type who maintains the "if you do the crime, do the time" philosophy; that juveniles who commit "adult" crimes should be subject to adult punishments.
Seems to me in many cases to be both a waste of a young life and a considerable chunk of the taxpayer's money.
In 1989 I was on a grand jury. There was a 15 year old boy named Randy Dobbs. One day this boy skipped school and he phoned in an order for three pizzas with everything on them. The pizza delivery person was a 20 year old married woman with a 7 month old baby boy. She came to the door and he shot her through the window glass on the front door. He shot her with .357 magnum revolver through her head. Her brains were scattered matter on his parents porch.

His motive was he wanted a joyride in her van. He had tentative plans to drive around in this vehilce with a friend of his robbing homes and killing everyone in these homes. His friend would have none of it and Randy drove this van to his grandmothers house and she called the police.

Ok he's arrested. If we charged him as a juvenile he would be out in perhaps three years. If we indicted him as an adult he would serve life with a chance of parole. We felt that his crime made him such a menace to society that three years in juvenile was not enough punishment so we went the adult route.

Randy had a chance for parole after 20 years incarceration but he not only was denied parole he apparently did something in prison to where he is no longer eligible for said parole.


In my opinion he should never be released. The family of the slain girl went to his parole hearing and the girls now grown son testified as to the damage done to his family by this horrible little punk who killed his mother.

During the trial Randy smiled and smarted off to the judge throughout the proceedings.
 
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Merge with the other thread, the one about the 77 'youths' in Florida?
 
Something about the OP doesn't ring true to me. How does a woman get life in prison, as a minor, for her boyfriend killing someone? I suspect that the full details are being withheld here. I'm interested in this "felony murder provision". If she was truly an innocent bystander, that sounds a bit rough. But I have doubts that such aggressive and unfair laws exist. But I'm also open to be educated on it.
 
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Something about the OP doesn't ring true to me. How does a woman get life in prison, as a minor, for her boyfriend killing someone? I suspect that the full details are being withheld here. I'm interested in this "felony murder provision". If she was truly an innocent bystander, that sounds a bit rough. But I have doubts that such aggressive and unfair laws exist. But I'm also open to be educated on it.

If she was convicted as an accomplice the same charges could be applied against her as if she had performed the actual criminal act herself. Depending of course on local laws. Still, i would be interested in more details as it does sound to be a rather harsh sentance for a 15 year old accomplice to have received. A sentance of life also has different meanings in different jurisdictions.

I do agree that life imprisonment for juvenile offenses without any recourse to review after time served is harsh. Cainkane1's anecdote at the least shows the review process can work at keeping those who are not reformed and still relish their guilt are not freed.
 
In my opinion he should never be released. The family of the slain girl went to his parole hearing and the girls now grown son testified as to the damage done to his family by this horrible little punk who killed his mother.

So you think length of sentances should be decided by the fact you can be emotionaly manipulated?
 
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Felony murder...Everyone involved in the crime is as guilty as the fellow who pulled the trigger. The getaway driver who was never in the bank... Standard stuff.

As to the post by Cainekane1 about the young psychotic... No one is trying to make the case that there are not irredeemable criminals who start in their youth; we have little choice but to incarcerate these people.
(though such cases do make one wonder about what we would do with such individuals were we able to successfully treat mental illness...)

However, as the case I profiled indicates, this does not apply to all cases. Judicial review seems like an intelligent thing in these instances.
 
Felony murder...Everyone involved in the crime is as guilty as the fellow who pulled the trigger. The getaway driver who was never in the bank... Standard stuff.

As to the post by Cainekane1 about the young psychotic... No one is trying to make the case that there are not irredeemable criminals who start in their youth; we have little choice but to incarcerate these people.
(though such cases do make one wonder about what we would do with such individuals were we able to successfully treat mental illness...)

However, as the case I profiled indicates, this does not apply to all cases. Judicial review seems like an intelligent thing in these instances.

I find it sad that we would ever incarcerate a juvenile for life. With all of the strides in our understanding of what leads to certain behaviors and what kinds of influences really can help "reform" young people, it seems barbaric.

I have always wondered why we can't, for juveniles, attempt rehabilitation as they do in other countries. In particular, my recall may be wrong, but I'm thinking of Norway...an island??? Why don't we create something similar, for juveniles, have them do labor, give them positive reenforcement, educate them continually, teach them to work with others to achieve community self-sufficiency, put them in a positive environment with qualified counsellors (not just guards), and let's see what happens? I don't know why we don't do that. Is it the size of our population that makes that impossible? Many juvenile offenders have never had a positive environment, and truthfully, for many of them, such a facility would be a vast improvement from their "normal" everyday environment. I think it's worth a shot. If ever there's at chance to "reform", it would be with young people.
 
How about a reality TV show where we take 20 lifers to a desert island and vote them back to prison, one by one, and the winner gets parole?

It would be terrific TV!
 
It's barbaric for the woman in the OP to be ineligible for parole.

I believe that too. The problem is that if you let such a person out and they then murder (or be an accessory to murder) again, the victim has been barbarously treated, by society as well as by the criminal.

Since we cannot consult god to solve the problem, then we need to wrestle with it. It must be a case-by-case decision, and there *will* be errors. I think there needs to be that review as well.
 
It's barbaric for the woman in the OP to be ineligible for parole.

We know little about this woman, including her name or what else she has done since she went prison. All we have is the one sided view that we got from a person who said they heard about it on the radio. After we eliminate child murderers, we can devote more time and resources to freeing the children that do kill.

Ranb
 
She participated in the robbery that resulted in the murder. She fled to Mexico for 2 years. She was 16 at the time of the robbery and 20 when sentenced.

Who was she? I have not seen her name or other info in any of the posts.

Ranb
 
In particular, my recall may be wrong, but I'm thinking of Norway...an island???

Your recall is not entirely right. The island you think about was featured in an outtake from one of Michael Moore's movies and I grew up watching the ferry dart between that island and my home town.

The island, Bastø, was originally used as a home for "naughty boys" and was infamous for abuse, molestation, and being a generally horrible environment. It was repurposed as a home for homeless alcoholics, then a maximum security prison, and finally a minimum security prison; Norway's first 'open' prison.

Currently it holds those convicts that are at the end of a long sentence and are considered not to pose a risk of escape. Prisoners are sometimes phased into society by being allowed to hold jobs in the various towns dotted along the Oslo-fjord, but returning to the island at the end of the work day.

There was a huge fire on the island a few weeks back, which destroyed a workshop the inmates used to build furniture.
 
I find it sad that we would ever incarcerate a juvenile for life. With all of the strides in our understanding of what leads to certain behaviors and what kinds of influences really can help "reform" young people, it seems barbaric.

.

I'm afraid it's more depressing than that. These are early teenagers that end up living their life, from age 13-17 to death, in prison, for something stupid that they did. Tanzania has one such case, South Africa has four, and Israel has between four and seven. The US has two thousand, two hundred and twenty five such cases. Every other country in the world has zero. In fact, there are only a handful of countries that even have the legal allowance of such a sentence, but they rarely if ever use it.

The average age at admission to prison was eighteen years old; the youngest entered prison at age fourteen and the oldest was twenty-six years old. Nevertheless, 29 percent, or just under one-third of all the offenders studied, were admitted to adult penitentiaries while they were still children. I'll let you take one guess what happens to kids in an adult prison:
Sheriffs took me to the Western Penitentiary. They lied to the warden telling him I were eighteen, which I had not yet become. I were housed in an open poorly supervised unit, and that evening a group of large adult men rushed into my cell, holding me down they began pulling my clothes off while another took a syringe over to a spoon that another inmate were holding a lighter under. He drew up whatever was in the spoon. I were then injected with whatever it were. And then raped. Once found by the officers I were taken to a holding area, cleaned up, and placed on a van to another prison at around 3:00 am.

I was the target of covert sexual predators. Adults would pretend to be your best friend to get close to you, then they would try you . . . Officers would be hard on me more so than the adults for they believe that the younger inmates need rougher treatment


Penitentiaries in the United States are not designed to further rehabilitation, and youth offenders sentenced to life without parole are often barred from participating in the few programs that do exist. Youth offenders serving life without parole face an additional and daunting challenge in they must come to terms with the fact that they will live in prison for the rest of their lives. Unsurprisingly, the suicide rate is through the roof. LWOPs cannot participate in many rehabilitative, educational, vocational training or other assignments available to other inmates with parole dates . . . The supposed rationality is that LWOPs are beyond salvagability and would just be taking a spot away from someone who will actually return to society someday.

Other offenders serving life without parole dream of playing a positive, redeeming role in society at some hypothetical point in the future. Troy L., who was fifteen when he murdered his abusive father, was interviewed for this report at age twenty-four in June 2004. He wrote in a subsequent letter:
I would be ever grateful, in fact, for the chance to spend my life now for some good reason. I would go to the most dangerous parts of Afghanistan or Israel, or jump on the first manned mission to Mars . . . .f the state were to offer me some opportunity to end my life doing some good, rather than a slow-wasting plague to the world, it would be a great mercy to me.



Some offenders manage to avoid drugs and alcohol in prison, a relevant accomplishment when substance abuse was a factor in their earlier criminal behavior. Thomas M., who was fifteen at the time of his offense and was interviewed in prison at age twenty, told a researcher for this report:
My dad is an alcoholic and he used to beat my mom real bad, and me. I remember one Christmas my dad got so drunk he threw my mom through the Christmas tree and it fell out the window. It can't get much worse than that . . . At that time [of the crime] I thought I was cool, getting high, cruising around on the streets with my so-called friends. Since I've been in prison, I've had plenty of opportunities to smoke cigarettes, do drugs, homemade liquor. But mark my words, I'll never smoke or drink or do drugs whether I spend the rest of my life in prison, or whether I am free. All I want is a chance. I've come a long way as far as who I am and what I want in life. . . . I've really changed


Criminal punishment in the United States can serve four goals: rehabilitation, retribution, deterrence, and incapacitation. The effectiveness of any punishment-whether life in prison or a week in jail-should be measured against the yardstick of these four goals and should accord with the widely accepted corollary that no punishment should be more severe than necessary to achieve these stated goals.

Sentencing children to life without parole fails to measure up on all counts.
 
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Oh, now that is a horse of a different color. Fleeing to another country for four years really does change things. The initial crime may have been tried as a juvenile, but fleeing was a continuance of the crime; and honestly moved it from a juvenile offense to an adult offense. The fact of the matter is that the court may have had little choice but to try an adult who fled for the crime she committed as a minor.

Fact of the matter is things may have been very different for her had she turned herself in as a minor instead of getting caught as an adult.
 

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