Supernatural laws?

[Nigel]

Hello, everyone - I've been lurking for awhile, learning the culture and rules of this forum, and finally decided to jump into the fray. I've been a skeptic since I was about 12 (some 30 years ago), when my father gave me a copy of Fads and Fallacies - a book that literally changed my life. Now, I've said all that to ask this - We've known for centuries about natural laws. Doesn't it make sense that *if* the paranormal existed, someone at some point should be (have been) a "paranormal Isaac Newton" and come up with a set of laws to explain the paranormal? For the sake of argument, say ghosts are real (I don't believe they are, just play along for a minute). I've always been puzzled by the idea that some ghosts can walk through walls, but at the same time pick up physical objects. There should be an explanation for their behavior. And why do their clothes (or horses and carriages in some cases) appear with them? Does that mean these things have spirits or souls? Do ghosts appear at the age they died? Has anybody ever reported a stillborn infant ghost? Or an infant that was born alive but soon died?

Not to answer my own question, but I can't think of a better answer than what I've read in Gardner/Klass/Sagan et al: they (ghosts, UFO aliens, etc.) look and act the way they do because that's the way we *expect* them to look and act. However, I'd still like any opinions from the group, and even though this is similar to the thread called "By any other name", I think my question is sufficiently different to warrant its own thread.

Nigel

PS I apologize if this seems like a long post. My future posts will more likely be shorter.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Hello, everyone - I've been lurking for awhile, learning the culture and rules of this forum, and finally decided to jump into the fray. I've been a skeptic since I was about 12 (some 30 years ago), when my father gave me a copy of Fads and Fallacies - a book that literally changed my life. Now, I've said all that to ask this - We've known for centuries about natural laws. Doesn't it make sense that *if* the paranormal existed, someone at some point should be (have been) a "paranormal Isaac Newton" and come up with a set of laws to explain the paranormal? For the sake of argument, say ghosts are real (I don't believe they are, just play along for a minute). I've always been puzzled by the idea that some ghosts can walk through walls, but at the same time pick up physical objects. There should be an explanation for their behavior. And why do their clothes (or horses and carriages in some cases) appear with them? Does that mean these things have spirits or souls? Do ghosts appear at the age they died? Has anybody ever reported a stillborn infant ghost? Or an infant that was born alive but soon died?

Not to answer my own question, but I can't think of a better answer than what I've read in Gardner/Klass/Sagan et al: they (ghosts, UFO aliens, etc.) look and act the way they do because that's the way we *expect* them to look and act. However, I'd still like any opinions from the group, and even though this is similar to the thread called "By any other name", I think my question is sufficiently different to warrant its own thread.

Nigel

PS I apologize if this seems like a long post. My future posts will more likely be shorter.

Welcome, Nigel! Good first post. Good questions. I think it is important to 'pin down' what paranormal phenomena believers are talking about before they bamboozle us with multiplex misdirection like the kind that goes on around mediumship.

I don't think there has been, or will be a 'paranormal Isaac Newton', although Newton, himself, spent a lot of time on alchemy and hermeticism. Believers can always say that phenomena are "unexplained" or come up with a pseudo explanation that, although it defies rationality to us, is quite convincing to their fellows.

I hope some believers answer your questions. Should be 'interesting'.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Plus, do animals have souls?

If not, how do believers explain the reports of ghostly animals, like horses (riden by ghostly riders) and devil dogs?

Do modern ghosts drive ghost cars?

Why no ghostly worms? Why no ghostly goldfish? Why no hordes of ghost ants?

Why did ghosts once float, then (after archeologically-minded ghost reporters began to report that evidence for 'real' ghosts was that they 'sunk into the ground slightly', because they are walking on 'their level' of the ground) why were ghosts thereafter seldom described as floating?

Why do ghosts hang around their old haunting places?

If ghosts 'materialise', what material (other than cheesecloth) are they composed of?

 

[plindboe]

If ghosts 'materialise', what material (other than cheesecloth) are they composed of?

I think they call it ectoplasm. Ghost believers love to use scientific sounding words.

 

[Nigel]

"I think they call it ectoplasm."

They certainly used to, in the old days of the spiritualists, ca. 1920s, do they still use the term? What exactly is "ectoplasm"? And why doesn't John Edward produce it on his show?? (Aside from the fact that he's full of b******t.)

It seems as though the spirit world is as full of trendiness and fads as the "real" world.

Two ghosts talking: "Marge, I'm going to a seance today. Does this ectoplasm make me look fat?"
"Ummm....no, Frances, but ectoplasm is sooooo 1920s. Are you sure you want to seen in that? Why not just wave a trumpet for Gawd's sake?!"

Nigel

 

[MRC_Hans]

But isn't "supernatural" exactly about NOT obeying the laws of physics?

Still, your question can then be paraphrased into: If paranormal phenomenons existed, wouldn't they show up as disrepancies in the laws of physics?

Which is exactly what skeptics argue, and since they don't, some people are willing to bet a million $ there is nothing supernatural.



Hans

 

[thaiboxerken]

Again, believers will often give explanations about how the paranormal events and phenomena occur but they can't show that the actual paranormal thing happens. It makes for good fictions sometimes, but that's about it.

 

[Nigel]

Agreed. Which brings us back to, as Shermer put it, "Why people believe in weird things".

I've been in the customer service field for a number of years. One thing I used to tell my reports was, "We're not dealing with rational creatures. We're dealing with people."

Nigel

 

[Mike D.]

"I think they call it ectoplasm."

They certainly used to, in the old days of the spiritualists, ca. 1920s, do they still use the term? What exactly is "ectoplasm"? And why doesn't John Edward produce it on his show?? (Aside from the fact that he's full of b******t.)

It seems as though the spirit world is as full of trendiness and fads as the "real" world.

Two ghosts talking: "Marge, I'm going to a seance today. Does this ectoplasm make me look fat?"
"Ummm....no, Frances, but ectoplasm is sooooo 1920s. Are you sure you want to seen in that? Why not just wave a trumpet for Gawd's sake?!"

Nigel

Nigel,

There are still mediums today who claim to produce ectoplasm. Mediums are divided into two large groups: mental mediums and physical mediums. Only physical mediums claim to produce things like ectoplasm, levitations, raps, etc. Mental mediums claim to relay messages from the dead verbally or through "automatic writing." John Edward is viewed as a mental medium, therefore one would not expect him to claim to produce ectoplasm.

Mike

 

[Mike D.]

Plus, do animals have souls?

If not, how do believers explain the reports of ghostly animals, like horses (riden by ghostly riders) and devil dogs?

Do modern ghosts drive ghost cars?

Why no ghostly worms? Why no ghostly goldfish? Why no hordes of ghost ants?

Why did ghosts once float, then (after archeologically-minded ghost reporters began to report that evidence for 'real' ghosts was that they 'sunk into the ground slightly', because they are walking on 'their level' of the ground) why were ghosts thereafter seldom described as floating?

Why do ghosts hang around their old haunting places?

If ghosts 'materialise', what material (other than cheesecloth) are they composed of?

Malcolm/Thor,

Thought you might find this article by Stephen Braude interesting. He examines the question of whether or not out of body experiences are good evidence for life after death. Toward the end of the article he raises the question of whether or not apparitions, etc. are good evidence for life after death.

Mike

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/braude/obe.htm

 

[Nigel]

Mike,

Somehow, I'm not surprised there are still physical mediums around, however, I guess I was hoping against hope that the trend would have burned it self out.

It seems like some stuff never goes away....more's the pity.

Nigel

 

[Brian]

Good question. The minute a supernatural phenomenon was classified and explained, it would cease to be supernatural. We'd have to change the parameters of natural to include, say, ghosts.

Much the same as the minute an alternative medicine is proved safe and effective, it's not alternative anymore, just medicine.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Brian said:
Much the same as the minute an alternative medicine is proved safe and effective, it's not alternative anymore, just medicine.

And then it's baaaaad. On to the next alternative. We shall have no non-alternative medicines.

~~ Paul

 

[jimmygun]

Mike D writes..." John Edward is viewed as a mental medium, therefore one would not expect him to claim to produce ectoplasm."

Or any other results for that matter.

 

[pupdog]

JE a "mental medium"? "Extra small", I think.

There have been lots of self-proclaimed "Isaac Newtons" of the paranormal; we've seen quite a few on these pages, plus over at Quintessence of the Loon. From what I've been reading lately, ID Creationist William Dembski could qualify, with his Law of Conservation of Information.

 

[hgc]

Plus, do animals have souls?

...

Why no ghostly worms? Why no ghostly goldfish? Why no hordes of ghost ants?

...

Supernatural Law 1031, Section II states "Ghosts haunt like souls. Worm ghosts for worms. Goldfish ghosts for goldfish. Ant ghosts for ants. Except when it comes to the Pet Psychic. The Pet Psychic can talk to dog ghosts and cat ghosts, but not iguana ghosts or floppy-eared rabbit ghosts. Dwarfs can see, but cannot hear, other human ghosts. African pygmies can talk to toy Poodles and miniature Shnauzers and Llasa Apsos, but don't know what on (or off) Earth they are."

 

[Nigel]

Originally quoted by hgc:

Supernatural Law 1031, Section II states "Ghosts haunt like souls. Worm ghosts for worms. Goldfish ghosts for goldfish. Ant ghosts for ants. Except when it comes to the Pet Psychic. The Pet Psychic can talk to dog ghosts and cat ghosts, but not iguana ghosts or floppy-eared rabbit ghosts. Dwarfs can see, but cannot hear, other human ghosts. African pygmies can talk to toy Poodles and miniature Shnauzers and Llasa Apsos, but don't know what on (or off) Earth they are."

So that's how it is...what a sap I've been! It's all so clear now!

Nigel

 

[whim]

Supernatural Law 1031, Section II states "Ghosts haunt like souls. Worm ghosts for worms. Goldfish ghosts for goldfish. Ant ghosts for ants. Except when it comes to the Pet Psychic. The Pet Psychic can talk to dog ghosts and cat ghosts, but not iguana ghosts or floppy-eared rabbit ghosts. Dwarfs can see, but cannot hear, other human ghosts. African pygmies can talk to toy Poodles and miniature Shnauzers and Llasa Apsos, but don't know what on (or off) Earth they are."

Well, then we just need a pet psychic to tell us if animals see ghosts too!

 

[Mike D.]

Well, then we just need a pet psychic to tell us if animals see ghosts too!

whim,

I've read a fair amount of anecdotal "ghost stories," and something that crops up from time to time is people claiming that their pets act as though they are aware of ghosts, spirits of the dead, etc. For example, they will report things such as their dog staring at a certain place as though something was there, barking or growling at an area as though they are seeing something, or refusing to enter a room that the owners of the dog feel is haunted, etc.

Mike

 

[Nigel]

as posted by Mike D.
I've read a fair amount of anecdotal "ghost stories," and something that crops up from time to time is people claiming that their pets act as though they are aware of ghosts, spirits of the dead, etc. For example, they will report things such as their dog staring at a certain place as though something was there, barking or growling at an area as though they are seeing something, or refusing to enter a room that the owners of the dog feel is haunted, etc.

I've read a lot of those stories too. Horses are supposed to be good at that as well. Also, animals are supposed to pick up ultrasonic vibrations to signal earthquakes. But if they're detecting (seeing? hearing? something else?) ghosts, then how can animals hear such low-pitched sounds as has been "recorded" by the EVP investigators? Animals should hear higher pitched sounds we can't. See? It doesn't make sense. But the woo-woos are so used to having it both ways, I suppose it does make sense (to them).


Nigel