Split from "Nephilim" thread

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

I split my response off because the thread degenerated without very much response to the OP

In Genesis 6, there's a discussion of the origin of the Nephilim. It says that the sons of heaven bred with the daughters of men to produce the race of giants known as the Nephilim.

(This is from memory. My apologies if I make a mistake on this. I'll try to correct it when I have a bibile in front of me. Whatever it says, it's weird.)

I'm curious if anyone has ever confronted a literalist with this infofmation, and what their reaction has been. We're used to discussing the young Earth, and Noah's flood, and various minor historical inaccuracies. The fundies have their pat answers for all of those things, but the Nephilim strikes me as one that would give them fits. It asserts that spiritual beings had sex with human females and ended up producing real, presumably human, offspring. I would just love to see a typical literalist response to questions about them.

At the time that the epistles 2nd Peter and Jude were written, that passage was taken absolutely literally. Both epistles follow the same outline and show the same influence of several apocryphal writings that go into more detail about the daliance of angelic beings with humans. so, when Jude condemns the people of Sodom for "lusting after strange flesh," he is probably talking about xenophilia, not homosexuality.

Modern literalists tend to read "sons of G-d" as descendents of Seth (Adam and Eve's other "good" son), and "daughters of men" as descendents of Cain, and to ignore the next line about the resulting "giants." When it is pointed out, the say that there is nothing to indicate that the two statements (the miscegenation and the existence of giants) are in any way related.

This is also the way that semi-literalists (such as the Catholic Church, and the neo-conservative branches of Protestantism) treat these verses. This has the advantage of seeing only one way to read Jude: a condemnation of "sodomy" -- defined as anal sex.

There are occassional congregations of literalists who do believe in demonic beings (fallen angels) physically seducing humans, and who have no problem interpreting either Genesis or Jude in that light. Strangely, even though they correctly interpret Jude, they still use it to attack the LGBT community.

 

[andyandy]

One could maybe see the references to the nephilim as a continuation of sumerian anunnaki legend - some sources do link the two names - although i don't know if any of those sources are more credible than the less than trustworthy Sitchin....

thoughts?

 

[athon]

Don't forget that size was also about greatness. There was no genetic view of this being a race of giants as we see it, but rather a race of great humans. Perspective in Egyptian art demonstrates this, and stories from pre-Islamic middle east depict all the patriarchs as being massive. One tale tells of Moses being buried with his head forming the hill of one town and his feet being several days ride away.

Athon

 

[petra10]

i think lots of stuff from the bible and other major religons can be traced back to ancient egyptians especially their religous beliefs.i am not sure about this one but it sounds to me the pharohs,who were treated as gods,bred with women their children were bigger in the sense more important than mere ordinary people.In other words they were giant or above those who were not royal.

 

[Meadmaker]

The thing I like about the whole "Nephilim" thing as a challenge to literalists is that it puts them in an uncomfortable position. When defending Noah's flood, they can "make sense" out of this by invoking something that makes sense to them. Man was wicked. God punished them. God violated the laws of physics to do so, but who cares? He's God. He can do that.

Now, about those Nephilim. A race of giants who were the offspring of spiritual beings and human females. Well, God can do that, too, but it doesn't really seem to "fit" with the rest of the things fundies believe about God. Since it doesn't really "fit", they are reduced to saying that what the Bible says isn't really what it says, but that it should be taken literally when it says it.

 

[Dancing David]

i think lots of stuff from the bible and other major religons can be traced back to ancient egyptians especially their religous beliefs.i am not sure about this one but it sounds to me the pharohs,who were treated as gods,bred with women their children were bigger in the sense more important than mere ordinary people.In other words they were giant or above those who were not royal.

It is true of a lot of cultures that portrayals of kings are larger than common folk. Gilgamesh for example.

That is why i memtioned the Duatha Daan in the other thread, they used to be giants and became ants.

 

[Kopji]

The fundies note the potential problem. The giants are also mentioned in
Numbers 13:33 AFTER the flood. So if the giants were not supernatural beings they would have died in the flood.

From the fundies themselves in a nutshell (pardon the expression):

Since the Old Testament describes Nephilim both before and after the flood, if the Nephilim were a race then it would contradict the rest of Scripture, which indicates pretty clearly that there were only eight survivors of the flood.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/nephilim.html

The rule of thumb goes sort of like this: if the answer you come up with contradicts scripture, your reasoning must be flawed because the Bible is perfect. It is a WASTE OF TIME trying to prove the Bible is flawed because IT IS PERFECT. Sheesh doesn't anyone get this?

Genesis 6 KJV
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 6&version=9;

 

[Meadmaker]

It is true of a lot of cultures that portrayals of kings are larger than common folk. Gilgamesh for example.

That is why i memtioned the Duatha Daan in the other thread, they used to be giants and became ants.

"Duatha Daan"?

They don't show up in google. Any relation to the Tuatha de Danaan? The Irish ancient race that became the fairies?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Sorry, but I haven't followed the entire original thread:

Has anyone mentioned fossil bones as a source of the giants mythology? There's an excellent theory about the relationship of fossils, especially large extinct mammals like mammoths, being the source for many giant myths of the ancient world. There's a very rich bone bed in Greece that was well known to the ancients. It is probably the source of the Greek tales about the mythological heroes being about 3 times as tall as humans as they (and we) knew them. Ancient Greeks were known to find disarticulated mammoth skeletons and re-bury them in a more anthropoid arrangement.

 

[Meadmaker]

Sorry, but I haven't followed the entire original thread:

Has anyone mentioned fossil bones as a source of the giants mythology? There's an excellent theory about the relationship of fossils, especially large extinct mammals like mammoths, being the source for many giant myths of the ancient world. There's a very rich bone bed in Greece that was well known to the ancients. It is probably the source of the Greek tales about the mythological heroes being about 3 times as tall as humans as they (and we) knew them. Ancient Greeks were known to find disarticulated mammoth skeletons and re-bury them in a more anthropoid arrangement.

Cool.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Cool.

There's even very good reason to think that the cyclops myths arose from the same source. Looking at a fossil mammoth skull an ancient could easily mistake the nasal opening for an eye socket. Fossils were certainly known of long before modern paleontology and it's quite probable that they were the origin of many mythological beasts. Ancient peoples with little to no concept of extinction and deep time would be likely to assume that these were the remains of some currently living, though rare, animal or monster. For instance, the legends of the griffin originate in an area known for its protoceratops fossils. Another interesting thing I've read about is the fact that many fossil bone beds contain a number of species. This may explain why so many ancient mythical creatures are composites of different animals.

 

[andyandy]

Sorry, but I haven't followed the entire original thread:

Has anyone mentioned fossil bones as a source of the giants mythology? There's an excellent theory about the relationship of fossils, especially large extinct mammals like mammoths, being the source for many giant myths of the ancient world. There's a very rich bone bed in Greece that was well known to the ancients. It is probably the source of the Greek tales about the mythological heroes being about 3 times as tall as humans as they (and we) knew them. Ancient Greeks were known to find disarticulated mammoth skeletons and re-bury them in a more anthropoid arrangement.

very interesting - i hadn't thought of that before, but that makes good sense....

where is the photo from? A mock up of how a skeleton could be made to look human, or is it actually how it was discovered?

 

[Foster Zygote]

very interesting - i hadn't thought of that before, but that makes good sense....

where is the photo from? A mock up of how a skeleton could be made to look human, or is it actually how it was discovered?

It's just a mock-up done with models from a Princeton University page. But paleontologist have actually found giant coffins in Greece containing reasonably complete mammoth skeletons that were arranged in this anthropoid fashion. When erosion or earthquake would expose a skeleton the ancient Greeks would interpret it as the remains of one of their mythic heroes and often re-inter them with great fanfare and honor.

I wish I could remember the name of the anthropologist who has written quite a bit about this. I'll do a search and see if I can find her. Some fascinating things about the griffin: They were said to guard gold as well as their nests. The area in central Asia where a large number of protoceratops fossils are found is known for its gold deposits and there are quite a few fossilized protoceratops nests with eggs in them as well. A few important trade routs ran through this region so the stories of griffins were spread across a large geographic area.

ETA: Adrienne Mayor is the person I was thinking about.

 

[Correa Neto]

Hey, FZ, would you happen to have a link to the articles?

Would be very handy in some discussions I every now and then find myself with cryptozoologists and cryptoarcheologists!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Foster Zygote]

Hey, FZ, would you happen to have a link to the articles?

Would be very handy in some discussions I every now and then find myself with cryptozoologists and cryptoarcheologists!

Thanks in advance!

This one is pretty good.

As is this one.

 

[Correa Neto]

Cool, Thanks!

 

[Beerina]

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

There's a woman who lived to the age of 121. Oops!