Speeding charge for ambulance

[Tony]

http://www.itv.com/news/38417.html
...full article

Mike Ferguson, a senior ambulance driver with West Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service, was in an official vehicle with blue lights flashing when he was spotted by police on the A1 in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire

First this, now this situation with the ambulance driver. They sure are tough on crime in the UK.

 

[Khalid01]

This could turn out unfortunate, there are a lot of stupid people in the world, Tony. In the first case we witness a small committee who is using some fuzzy logic to keep a man jailed, but that happens, I'm not condoning the action, but identifying the cause. I am sure our supreme court has made so worse decisions in the past. Besides, does this farmer not seem the least bit eccentric to you? He's previously attacked a trespassing vehicle with a shotgun, and subsequently lost his license. I agree with releasing the farmer, but does he not appear a bit irresponsible characteristically?

In the second case we have a couple irresponsible policemen(constables?) who have incompetently issued a ticket. The ambulence driver has yet to be prosecuted and could be let off.

I understand your concern, but was it absolutely necessary for you to criticize the entire British legal system based on roughly 5 people? Methinks it has something to do with your opinion of gun control, but only a little tweety-bird told me that.

 

[Boo]

In the US an Ambulance must obey all traffic laws. This includes stopping for school buses, obeying the speed limit, etc. Generally speaking as a courtesy most law enforcement will follow any ambulance to their destination and ticket the driver then. If the officer observing the violation feels that the ambulance is being operated in a manner that is unsafe, they have and will pull it over at that time.

The reasons for this are fairly obvious.......

1. Ambulance personnel cannot help someone if they are involved in a traffic accident responding.

2. It is generally considered poor form to cause an accident while responding.

The only law in the US for ambulances involves right of way when using lights and sirens. This is not absolute as in the situation invoving school buses picking up or offloading children.

Speaking as a Paramedic with 18 years of road time, trust me on this.

I would suspect that similar traffic laws apply in the UK, I could be wrong.



Boo

 

[subgenius]

I know personally of a local case in which a certain Sgt. Murphy (not to mention any names) pulled an ambulance over for speeding less than a mile from the intended hospital.
The driver told him they had a heart attack victim, and Murphy (not a joke) demanded to see the patient.
They opened the doors, Murphy took a look and declared, "There's not a damn thing wrong with that guy," and proceeded to write a ticket.
True story.
Stupidity and mental illness are not confined to any particular group.
Even assuming they have to obey traffic laws, there is a paramount concern, and the common law and common sense supports it.
Even assuming he had a right to issue a ticket, what's the harm in waiting until they dropped the patient off?

 

[jema]

I think it ias a fact of life that if you give some idiots a uniform then the authority will go to their heads and they will become tin pot little fascists

all it then takes is for the system not to be "self healing" as you have buerocracies that will admit no wrong and you get screw ups like this.

jema

 

[subgenius]

I think it ias a fact of life that if you give some idiots a uniform then the authority will go to their heads and they will become tin pot little fascists

all it then takes is for the system not to be "self healing" as you have buerocracies that will admit no wrong and you get screw ups like this.

jema

Nail on the head.

 

[Boo]

sub,

I agree with you. That individual officer was (darn, not allowed to use those words) wrong. There are plenty of others out there just like him. I've met a few.

The point I was trying to make is that doing 80 in a 25 (as an example) is more likely to get people injured then save a life.

As the one in the back without a seatbelt or restraint of any kind while working on the patient, I prefer that whoever is driving get us to the hospital with minimum trauma sustained by all.

Boo

 

[subgenius]

sub,

I agree with you. That individual officer was (darn, not allowed to use those words) wrong. There are plenty of others out there just like him. I've met a few.

The point I was trying to make is that doing 80 in a 25 (as an example) is more likely to get people injured then save a life.

As the one in the back without a seatbelt or restraint of any kind while working on the patient, I prefer that whoever is driving get us to the hospital with minimum trauma sustained by all.

Boo

Absolutely.
Let's assume no traffic, 10 over, then its kind of ridiculous.
I knew a cop once who was unfortunate enough to get shot and then the ambulance got in an accident taking him to the hospital. Not his best day.

 

[Ove]

I reall agree with you folks here, common sense must prevail. Adding to Boo's story i must say that when we are talking about distances of roughly speaking 10 to 15 km's to the hospital a speed increase really doesn't give that much benefit in the end. It is much more important to ensure that the patient (and ambulance) arrives in one piece.

In Denmark most ambulances are fitted with quite sophisticated communication equipment and the crew will normally be in contact with the hospital staff and be advised about treatment during the ride.

But this subject has risen some stir in Denmark too. There has been a couple of incidents involving police officers who has been given tickets for speeding without siren and lights. We use automatic camera's some places to record speed and write out tickets and some police officers has tried to wriggle out of a ticket by stating that they were in pursuit. Unfortunately states the Danish law quite clearly that if you are in pursuit you MUST use flashing lights and siren.

Another incident was more serious. A young man was killed when he tried to cross the road to get to a baker shop one sunday morning. He was run down by a police car doing 80-85mph in a 25mph zone AND the police car was not using lights and siren. In the end the police driver was punished and the general mood are now :"If you do emergency driving use horns and lights".

There has been some ridiculous statements too. My younger brother is a volunteer fire man, we use that a lot in Denmark. Basically they has regular jobs but carry a beeper and has to respond when the beeper goes off. Some of those guys has also stated that they should be allowed to speed without being fined because "It is a matter of life and death that they get to the fire station in time".

The result off course would be anarchy. You just cant have a system where some people are allowed to speed in cities and others aren't. Luckily (for my brother and his friends) nobody has yet been run over by a fireman on the way to his job but how will they defend it when it happens?: "Well at least we saved Mr. Jones's garage, to bad we killed his daughter on the way to the fre station".

 

[Ian Osborne]

They sure are tough on crime in the UK.

This case has caused a MASSIVE outcry over here, and as the case is pending, we've yet to see how it will be resolved in court.

 

[Jon_in_london]

The pen-absolute best was the guy who killed a boy by reckless driving. He didnt have a license. He was find £200 and BANNED from driving how do you ban someone from driving when they arent licencsed in any case?!

Probably this ambulance driver will get fined £2000 and have his licence removed forever, just to destroy his livelihood.

The absolute best thing about our legal system is the way we just let a gang of Afghan hijackers go free! that right! they hijacked a plane using guns, knives and grenades, staged a mock execution of some of the passengers and those wonderfull judges of ours, in their infinite wisdom decided to let them go because they may have been tortured/executed in Afghanistan.

So that alright then! Hijack a plane to the UK and you'll get free food and accomodation, healthcare and education for your children (whom you will be bring over shortly)! then its time for tea and sue the government for false imprisonment!!!

 

[BobK]

I noticed the article said the speed was 104mph. Isn't speed clocked in kph in Britain?

If it's 104mph, how stable would an ambulance be at that speed?

What kind of road, weather?

I can see speeding being allowed, but 104mph seems kind of reckless.

 

[BillyTK]

In the US an Ambulance must obey all traffic laws. This includes stopping for school buses, obeying the speed limit, etc. Generally speaking as a courtesy most law enforcement will follow any ambulance to their destination and ticket the driver then. If the officer observing the violation feels that the ambulance is being operated in a manner that is unsafe, they have and will pull it over at that time.

The reasons for this are fairly obvious.......

1. Ambulance personnel cannot help someone if they are involved in a traffic accident responding.

2. It is generally considered poor form to cause an accident while responding.

The only law in the US for ambulances involves right of way when using lights and sirens. This is not absolute as in the situation invoving school buses picking up or offloading children.

Speaking as a Paramedic with 18 years of road time, trust me on this.

I would suspect that similar traffic laws apply in the UK, I could be wrong.



Boo

In the UK, any vehicle which is used for police, ambulance or fire-fighting purposes is exempt from speeding laws. Although Lincolnshire police want to prosecute, Cambridgeshire police are not because they recognise the exemption. The Lincolnshire police are prosecuting on the basis that the vehicle the guy was driving wasn't an ambulance (it was an estate, albeit with ambulance colours and big blue and red flashing lights), even though the law is quite clear that it's the purpose of the vehicle, rather than the specific type of vehicle, which is exempt.

Lincolnshire police and judiciary really need to reconsider their position before they end up with further egg on their collective faces.

Btw re: the other link Tony provide--Martin shot the burglars in the back as they were leaving his farm. I wonder how US courts would deal with this?

 

[Ian Osborne]

I noticed the article said the speed was 104mph. Isn't speed clocked in kph in Britain?

If it's 104mph, how stable would an ambulance be at that speed?

What kind of road, weather?

I can see speeding being allowed, but 104mph seems kind of reckless.

It wasn't an 'ambulance' as such - rather, it was a performence estate car carrying out the function of an ambulance, specifically, taking an organ to a transplant patient. It was bedecked with flashing lights and sirens too.

And no, we clock speed in mph here.

 

[BobK]

Ian,
Thanks for the info.

 

[a_unique_person]

In the US an Ambulance must obey all traffic laws. This includes stopping for school buses, obeying the speed limit, etc. Generally speaking as a courtesy most law enforcement will follow any ambulance to their destination and ticket the driver then. If the officer observing the violation feels that the ambulance is being operated in a manner that is unsafe, they have and will pull it over at that time.

The reasons for this are fairly obvious.......

1. Ambulance personnel cannot help someone if they are involved in a traffic accident responding.

2. It is generally considered poor form to cause an accident while responding.

The only law in the US for ambulances involves right of way when using lights and sirens. This is not absolute as in the situation invoving school buses picking up or offloading children.

Speaking as a Paramedic with 18 years of road time, trust me on this.

I would suspect that similar traffic laws apply in the UK, I could be wrong.



Boo

I could take your side here. 104mph is pretty fast, even on a freeway. I know that in Australia they have been cracking down on Police and Ambulances speeding. Otherwise, you just get a regular series of crashes when drivers push the limit because there is an emergency on. (Not to mention the drivers who refuse to give way. I saw some just the other day. When they saw the road had cleared to let the ambulance go through, they took the opportunity to shoot through.)

Maybe if they let him off, and issue clear guidelines on just exactly what is and what is not safe driving. 60mph is pretty fast, and, as someone else has pointed out, the speed difference is not going to make that much difference in most cases.

 

[BillyTK]

I could take your side here. 104mph is pretty fast, even on a freeway. I know that in Australia they have been cracking down on Police and Ambulances speeding. Otherwise, you just get a regular series of crashes when drivers push the limit because there is an emergency on. (Not to mention the drivers who refuse to give way. I saw some just the other day. When they saw the road had cleared to let the ambulance go through, they took the opportunity to shoot through.)

Maybe if they let him off, and issue clear guidelines on just exactly what is and what is not safe driving. 60mph is pretty fast, and, as someone else has pointed out, the speed difference is not going to make that much difference in most cases.

In this particular instance, the driver was carrying organs from one hospital to another, so time was of the essence. However, wrt the issue of whether he was breaking the law or not, by any reasonable interpretation of UK law, he clearly wasn't.

I suspect that if it had been during the daytime then a medical helicopter would have been used; basically there's a central unit that organises organ transfers, and decides on the most effective method of transport. I doubt if they'd've risked road transport on what is one of the busier roads outside of London during daytime.

 

[Incitatus]

Btw re: the other link Tony provide--Martin shot the burglars in the back as they were leaving his farm. I wonder how US courts would deal with this?

I believe that the kid that he killed was shot in his bedroom and the other two were shot downstairs in his house.

I seriously doubt that a person would be charged in the US for a similar act.

 

[BillyTK]

I believe that the kid that he killed was shot in his bedroom and the other two were shot downstairs in his house.

I seriously doubt that a person would be charged in the US for a similar act.

Admittedly my memory is not what it used to be, so I've had a hunt for more details:

As [Fred Barras] and an accomplice rummaged around for something worth stealing they woke Martin, who descended the stairs with an unlicensed pump-action shotgun in his hands.

The pair scrambled to get out of the window they had come in.

Barras was blasted in the back and died within seconds.

The other man managed to get further but was shot in the legs.

Source

 

[Incitatus]

Admittedly my memory is not what it used to be, so I've had a hunt for more details:

Source

In his house in any event. I was in the UK when this happened and thought "open and shut, the guy will walk". I was shocked that he was thrown in the slammer. It seems that in the UK they want everyone to make nice and that the bad guys are viewed as a class worthy of protection. I still doubt that someone would be charged in this country.