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Speaker Wire - nice link

What? How dare they imply that my specialty high gauge, thermally insulated wire with platinum connectors doesn't produce noticeable improvement over zip-cord. Blasphemers!!!!
 
But... but... I heard that the special cables reduce the number of free energons or something to massively improve sound quality.

And you mean to say that the electrical wiring in my house has nothing to do with sound quality? Balderdash!

Good link, interesting read.
 
Well my speakers hardly work at all without wires, so it must be true.
 
Beyond a certain level I'm sure this is true. I paid about £20 for all my speaker wire (20m) and as far as I'm concerned anything more would be a waste. I know of someone who spent only £500 on equipment yet wired it up with £50/foot speaker wire.
 
My Speakers are hooked up using domestic 1.5mm twin and earth, works a treat and cheap as chips.
 
Beyond a certain level I'm sure this is true.


Yes, if you read the article, they do point out there's a huge difference between cheapo 24AWG wire and not quite-so-cheap 12-14 AWG wire due to impedence over long lengths. In fact the Monster Cable demo compares their high end cable to small gauge wire and there are noticeable differences, but they don't do a comparison with similar gauge wire.

monsterb.jpg
 
Yup, Roger Russell is a good one, and his site has been up for a while.

The ability for speaker wires to change the net RLC characteristics of the wire-speaker system is not controversial. However, some people actually seem to prefer the sound caused by higher impedance wires, something I discovered when I started messing around with vacuum tubes. Can't find it at the moment, but there are anecdotes of homebrewers actually putting 1 Ohm power resistors in series with the speakers, and liking the sound...

So basically there's two rational schools of thought -- run fat cables that lower series impedance as much as practical (I even heard of one guy on the AVS Forum who uses 00 arc-welding leads!), or run skinny cables and/or add passive elements to soften to taste. Neither requires any significant expense.
 
Yup, Roger Russell is a good one, and his site has been up for a while.

The ability for speaker wires to change the net RLC characteristics of the wire-speaker system is not controversial. However, some people actually seem to prefer the sound caused by higher impedance wires, something I discovered when I started messing around with vacuum tubes. Can't find it at the moment, but there are anecdotes of homebrewers actually putting 1 Ohm power resistors in series with the speakers, and liking the sound...

Vacuum tube amps usually have a higher output impedance than do most solid-state amps. This is due to two things:

Tube output stages are usually common-cathode (whether single-ended or push-pull), so the impedance seen looking back into the amp output is the output tubes' plate resistance divided by the square of the output transformer turns ratio. Just as a rule of thumb, this will often be of the same order of magnitude as the speaker's nominal impedance for triode circuits and an order of magnitude higher for power pentodes or beam power tubes.

The output stages of solid-state amps, OTOH, are most commonly emitter followers (or source followers in the case of power MOSFETs), which have much lower source impedances than would a common-emitter circuit or a common-cathode tube stage.

In addition, solid-state amps usually use much more overall negative feedback than do tube amps. Since the feedback is voltage-derived, it reduces the output impedance of the ampby a factor equal to the loop gain. Higher loop gains, as in the case of most solid-state amps, means a greater reduction of an open-loop output impedance which was already lower than that of a comparable tube amp.

Some manufacturers of solid-state musical instrument amplifiers use current-derived negative feedback around the output stage to increase the amp's output impedance, to get the lower speaker damping factor characteristic of tube amps. This works as long as the amp is within its range of reasonably linear operation, but kinda goes to Halifax when the amp clips and the feedback loop is effectively broken during the clipped intervals of the output waveform.

By way of numbers, some measurements I took from a Marshall 1986 50W head showed that with the output transformer on the 4 ohm tap, the output impedance at 1 kHz was just about 4 ohms- a damping factor of unity. With the "presence" control cranked (which works by rolling off the negative feedback at higher frequencies), this increased to around 40 ohms, which was probably pretty close to the amp's open-loop output Z.

Hi-fi amps aren't likely to be that extreme, but the general principle that tube amps have lower damping factors than solid state amps is pretty sound.

There have also been amps which use both voltage and current-derived negative feedback from the output, in adjustable proportion, to permit the amp's output impedance to be adjusted- even to the point of having a negative output resistance, which, by "cancelling" the resistance of the speaker wiring and voice coil winding, can theoretically achieve an infinite damping factor. Crown manufactured such a model in the '90s, and the principle goes back to the '50s, when Bogen manufactured tube amps with variable output impedance.

Incidentally, using a source with a negative output resistance to cancel errors due to wiring and winding resistance is a common trick in speed-control circuits for small PM motors- if you've ever used a dictating machine you were probably using just such a circuit.

So basically there's two rational schools of thought -- run fat cables that lower series impedance as much as practical (I even heard of one guy on the AVS Forum who uses 00 arc-welding leads!), or run skinny cables and/or add passive elements to soften to taste. Neither requires any significant expense.

Well, back when I was running a large-club PA system, the cables I made up for my bass bins (double 18" drivers in ported cabinets) were two 30-foot lengths of 10AWG cable in parallel (effectively 7AWG), which gave me a wiring resistance of 0.035 ohm for each cabinet.

Since the speaker's input impedance (which will be a complex function of frequency) and the series combination of wiring resistance and amp output impedance form a voltage divider, the effects of excessive wiring resistance on the magnitude-versus-frequency response at the speaker terminals is measurable. I have measured peaks and dips of as much as 2 dB at the terminals of near-field monitors in a poorly-wired studio control room, while the same measurement taken at the amp output terminals was ruler-flat.
 
I'm not all that up on inductors/chokes at audio frequencies but as the
cables in that photo look unshielded can anybody enlighten me on whether there would be a difference in audio 'quality' due to them being coiled vs. uncoiled?
 
I'm not all that up on inductors/chokes at audio frequencies but as the
cables in that photo look unshielded can anybody enlighten me on whether there would be a difference in audio 'quality' due to them being coiled vs. uncoiled?

In general, yes. Coiled vs. uncoiled gives you an inductor. Adding a series inductor to the signal path will preferentially attenuate higher frequencies. Whether or not the 3dB point is in the audible range depends on the size of the coil and what's going on in the speaker, but in general, inductance in the cables is a Very Bad ThingTM.
 
Thanx Mackey, I should really spend a few useful minutes with 'Art of Elec.' but I'm more used to HF and avoid 'those pesky coily olde worlde thingies' if I can help it'.

I did some work with diplexers a few years ago in terms of matching some odd impedance devices (piezoelectrics), am I right in thinking that there are ways to flatten the response at AF using something along these lines?

From the pic it looks like 21 turns on the surface of the Monster cable and the knob on the box could be approx. 14mm (from similar I've seen in Maplin) across which gives me an estimate of 56mm across for the monster coil. Perhaps 40% of this for the 'normal speaker' coil?

Any ideas on dimensions CynicalSkeptic? Or am I in a 'whole wrong ballpark' on this having an effect on the 'demonstration'?
 
Audio Cables - Science or Religion?

It is interesting that audio is the exclusive field where cables have been so hotly debated. It seems to be the only field where science and engineering practices, along with common sense, are almost completely ignored by many cable vendors and audio forum cult hobbyists.

Sound familiar?
 
Doesn't sound familiar but I certainly agree with the sentiment. I might
be completely wrong but I always thought that inductance at these frequencies/cable lengths (<?20m) would have little effect on the
performance as long as you don't start using some ridiculous single strand bellwire affair)

However start coiling stuff and things start happening rather quickly (or at least they do at 100MHz plus)

Good old 13 Amp flex has always worked a treat for me with HIFI. And I don't notice the difference which direction I connect it in either :) (unidirectional oxygen free copper! .... erm!)
 
From the pic it looks like 21 turns on the surface of the Monster cable and the knob on the box could be approx. 14mm (from similar I've seen in Maplin) across which gives me an estimate of 56mm across for the monster coil. Perhaps 40% of this for the 'normal speaker' coil?

Any ideas on dimensions CynicalSkeptic? Or am I in a 'whole wrong ballpark' on this having an effect on the 'demonstration'?


No idea really, I just copied that from the article linked to in the original post; however my guess would put the spool of monster cable at closer to 4 inches (or about 100mm). And no, I have no idea how this would affect inductance. It's been a long time since my Circuit Theory classes.
 
I love this... :D

I have no doubt that all these super wires can do absolutely everything claimed for them plus give me a rock-hard erection that'll last for a week and have women lining up at my door pleading with me to let them in

The problem is, I can't hear the difference.

Is there anyone here who can? Who's actually done a double-blind A-B or A-B-X test and proved he can do it?

I eagerly anticipate the usual pompous audiophile rants that double-blind A-B and A-B-X test prove nothing.

Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for that package I sent for in response to an email that promised I could have rock-hard erections that'll last for a week and have women lining up at my door pleading with me to let them in.
 
Yes, if you read the article, they do point out there's a huge difference between cheapo 24AWG wire and not quite-so-cheap 12-14 AWG wire due to impedence over long lengths. In fact the Monster Cable demo compares their high end cable to small gauge wire and there are noticeable differences, but they don't do a comparison with similar gauge wire.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/monsterb.jpg

Monster cannot actually do a comparison based on wire guage because they don't have guage rating on their wire. Any attempt to measure the guage of their wires would yield a larger than accuate result because there is a strip of plastic running through the center called a "flux tube"

Monster rates wires based on electrical capacity.
 
Well, you could certainly compare the cross sectional area of copper in two different wires. I wouldn't expect skin effect to make a huge difference at audio frequencies, and if the claim is that it does, then they should be using Litz wire.
 

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