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Some questions about hijacking

Dave Rogers

Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Dave Rogers
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
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Hi, newcomer here with some questions about hijacking and 9-11.

It seems to me that the comment "19 Arabs with boxcutters couldn't possibly defeat the most sophisticated defence system on Earth" is heard so often that it forms a major part of the belief system of 9-11 conspiracy theorists (a perception some others here have commented on in various threads). Indeed, for many it seems to be the origin of their beliefs that there's something wrong with the official story. However, it also seems quite amenable to debunking, just by looking at the history of aircraft hijackings. There are therefore three key questions I'd be interested in finding some answers to.

1) How often have hijacking attempts failed due to airport security preventing weapons being smuggled on to the plane?
2) How many times, as a proportion of hijack attempts, has a group of four or more armed people tried, but failed, to hijack an airliner?
3) How many times, as a proportion of attempts again, have military aircraft intercepted a hijacked aircraft within (pick your time here, but 45 minutes sounds about right) of the hijack being detected on the ground?

I suspect (1) would be very hard to answer, if only because the very existence of the attempt might escape detection. (2) should be available from news archives. (3) might well be hard to answer because air forces don't necessarily publish this sort of info. However, if the answers are never, never and never this would strongly suggest (a) that the failure of NORAD to intercept the airliners on 9-11 is in no sense anomalous, and (b) Al-Qaeda would have been able to reproduce the same analysis in planning the attack, which would have been a strong argument in favour of carrying it out.

A Google search on "failed hijack airliner" reveals several cases of lone individuals failing to take control of airliners, and a couple of cases of two or three, but the overall indication is that in a well-planned hijack attempt, failure is very rare if the hijackers get their weapons on the plane. I don't know of any better sources at present. Can anyone suggest some good reference material, or give some thoughts or information on these questions?

Dave
 
Well, statistics doesn't really reveal anything about this topic.

The real deal is mass psychology. How will a group of people react to a situation? I don't know too much about it, but the general theory seems to be that individuals tend to look for leaders to "do something" first. So in stressful situations, people tend to act like sheep (or 'sheeple').

I hope the situation has changed since 9/11, but the evidence doesn't seem to bear that out - in 2005 an Italian plane was hijacked, and that went off without a hitch, so people didn't rebel against that guy. But that was only one man, not a group of people, and he wasn't Arab-looking. That may have influenced the passenger's thinking.

So yeah. Mass psychology ...
 
chran said:
The real deal is mass psychology. How will a group of people react to a situation?
Click to expand...

This is at least part of the key. People forget that before 9/11/01, almost all hijackings ended in the plane being flown to some weird country, a fourteen hour standoff and the hijacker surrendering or being killed by a SWAT team. Victim deaths due to hijacking before 9/11/01? According to Wikipedia, between 1990 and 2000, fourteen planes were hijacked, with two victims dying in two separate incidents. One Etheopean plane ditched in the ocean after running out of fuel, killing 125 with 50 surviving. Data from 1980 to 1989 was similar with a slightly higher death toll including a Chinese flight where all 128 passengers died.

From a risk-gain perspective, the odds before 9/11 definitely favored staying in one's seat. A hijacker with a gun can only shoot so many people. If you ran at him, the chance that you'd be one of them increased a great deal.
 
chran said:
Well, statistics doesn't really reveal anything about this topic.

The real deal is mass psychology. How will a group of people react to a situation? I don't know too much about it, but the general theory seems to be that individuals tend to look for leaders to "do something" first. So in stressful situations, people tend to act like sheep (or 'sheeple').

I hope the situation has changed since 9/11, but the evidence doesn't seem to bear that out - in 2005 an Italian plane was hijacked, and that went off without a hitch, so people didn't rebel against that guy. But that was only one man, not a group of people, and he wasn't Arab-looking. That may have influenced the passenger's thinking.

So yeah. Mass psychology ...
Click to expand...

I saw a documentary a while back where scientists were trying to determine why, in certain situations, a person's desperate cries for help go unheeded. The most notorious example was a woman who was attacked in the street outside a number of apartment buildings, with hundreds of witnesses, and not one person called the police. This was presented by the media as an example of how much society has degraded in modern times.

However, experiments seemed to indicate that this is due to a natural tendency in all humans. Subjects were alone in a room communicating remotely with the experimenter, when a voice cried out asking for help. When there was only one subject, they immediately asked the experimenter to check on the cries. When there were multiple subjects on the same line, although in separate rooms, no one reacted at all. It wasn't that they "didn't want to get involved"; they were clearly concerned about what was happening. They simply were waiting for someone else to act first.

The experimenters concluded that when a person believes he is the only one available to intervene, then he tends to act quickly. When he believes there are others available, he waits for someone else to act. I believe that flight 93 proved, further, that groups tend to become more proactive when there is a shared threat to life and limb.

This is apparently just a part of human nature, and not a symptom of modern societal dysfunction.
 
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Exactly.

There was a program on Danish TV not too long ago where a psychologist actually recommended, if you were in some kind of danger in front of a group of people, that you went up to a single person and asked him or her directly for help instead of asking the whole group, for precisely the reasons you listed.
 
chran said:
Exactly.

There was a program on Danish TV not too long ago where a psychologist actually recommended, if you were in some kind of danger in front of a group of people, that you went up to a single person and asked him or her directly for help instead of asking the whole group, for precisely the reasons you listed.
Click to expand...

That was part of my first-aid training back in the 80's. You don't say, "Somebody call 911", you point at one guy, and say, "You call 911". Otherwise, it often happens that no one phones 911.
 
Reason 19 hijackers on Sept 11 were successfull 3 out of 4 times was that
tried something totally new - dedicated well trained team to seize aircraft
in flight and fly them into buildings. As stated before most hijackings were
the "lone nut" types for bizarre personal reasons ("fly me to Cuba") or extortion (DB Cooper). There were a few hijackings carried out be armed
Middle East terrorists in the 1970-1980's, but even then most wanted
aircraft/passengers for political motives (Free our imprisoned comrades,
liberate Palestine!). The Sept 11 hijackers were different in that wanted
aircraft (passengers were in the way) for suicidal attacks. The attacks were
well financed and planned, even to the point of making several tests flights
to observe reaction of passengers and crew (James Woods flight). Hijackers
were able to evade security by carrying utility type knives (often referred to
as "boxcutters" by media) with blades of lenght under 3" so as to not create
suspescion. On Flight 11 Atta and his crew after attacking flight crew and
Israeli-American Daniel Lewin (former Israeli Commando) sprayed cabin with
Mace/pepper spray to force passengers back from first class. Then barricaded shelves in cockpit. Flight 175 and 77 suspect similar tactics were used, but is unclear from phone calls make from planes. In all these cases
nobody (except hijackers) knew of plans to crash aircraft. On Flight 93
passengers were aware of what was in store. Also Flight 93 had only 4
hijackers not 5 and tactics seemed sloppy compared to others. From we
can conjecture 2 hijackers were in cockpit, one in first class who shuttled
between cockpit and last hijacker (with fake bomb) who watched passengers.
Passengers attacked hijackers and killed or disabled at least one, possibly
both hijackers in cabin and were seconds from forcing way into cockpit when plane crashed. Also should consider fact that 767 is wide body (2 aisles)
where 757 is single aisle limiting avenues of attack. Today anyone who misbehaves on aircraft is asking for beating by passengers if not being shot
by air marshalls (Richard Reid shoebomber). This is major reason noboby has
tried to hijack aircraft since Sept 11 - most threats are now focused on
tried to smuggle bombs on board, not seize control.

For reference check 9/11 Commission Report or
"America's Secret War" by Dr George Friedman of StratFor who gives
evaluation of tactics used on Sept 11 (why particular aircraft chosed, timing,
etc.)
 
Don't know if this is od any importance to the OP, But here is an example of the type of plastic knives that cannot be detected by metal detectors or xrays. And they are pretty lethal looking.

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=CHP
 
Obviously before 9/11 the smart thing to do was to stay in your seat and you had a very good chance of survival. The people on the fourth plane found out this was no longer the case and they stopped the hijacking. OF course if JohnDOe or Fetzer had been flying the planes they would have repelled the hijackers.

I would love to have real statistics on how many flights were ever intercepted in the US

Aggle Rithm when you said
I saw a documentary a while back where scientists were trying to determine why, in certain situations, a person's desperate cries for help go unheeded. The most notorious example was a woman who was attacked in the street outside a number of apartment buildings, with hundreds of witnesses, and not one person called the police. This was presented by the media as an example of how much society has degraded in modern times
Click to expand...
. it reminded me of a song from the 60's





Outside Of A Small Circle Of Friends
By Phil Ochs
Look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed
They've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Riding down the highway, yes, my back is getting stiff
Thirteen cars are piled up, they're hanging on a cliff.
Maybe we should pull them back with our towing chain
But we gotta move and we might get sued and it looks like it's gonna rain
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Sweating in the ghetto with the colored and the poor
The rats have joined the babies who are sleeping on the floor
Now wouldn't it be a riot if they really blew their tops?
But they got too much already and besides we got the cops
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Oh there's a dirty paper using sex to make a sale
The Supreme Court was so upset, they sent him off to jail.
Maybe we should help the fiend and take away his fine.
But we're busy reading Playboy and the Sunday New York Times
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Smoking marihuana is more fun than drinking beer,
But a friend of ours was captured and they gave him thirty years
Maybe we should raise our voices, ask somebody why
But demonstrations are a drag, besides we're much too high
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Oh look outside the window, there's a woman being grabbed
They've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow the game
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends
 
uruk said:
Don't know if this is od any importance to the OP, But here is an example of the type of plastic knives that cannot be detected by metal detectors or xrays. And they are pretty lethal looking.

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=CHP
Click to expand...

Just what I was getting ready to mention. We really don't know whether they used boxcutters on all flights - "cardboard cutters" were only mentioned on Flight 77 - the others only mentioned knives or "stabbings" in a general way. Plastic resin knives can be procured which are as sharp and as strong as a steel knife, but invisible to X-rays and airport security. There is a host of weaponry available to terrorists and criminals that the public may not realize exist - why the most effective solution is probably a larger air marshal force and individual screening of the sort the Israelis use.
 
Once again, the failure of the truthers to see the nonsense in the "19 arabs with boxcutters shouldnt have been able to pull it off" goes to the heart of their entire attitude and approach wrt 9/11.

The truthers fail to look at things without 20/20 hindsight. To understand how it was so easily done, one has to look at the way things were then, not now.

This failure occurs not just wrt to the hijacker bit, but also with the NORAD/NEADS/FAA/Military response on that day. It also applies to the response of the president, the response of the USG.

The mind of the average 15-25 year old that is a truther, applies a post 9/11 standard to a 9/11 event, which makes it fundamentally flawed from the outset.

TAM:)
 
aggle-rithm said:
The most notorious example was a woman who was attacked in the street outside a number of apartment buildings, with hundreds of witnesses, and not one person called the police. This was presented by the media as an example of how much society has degraded in modern times.
Click to expand...

That woman was Kitty GenoveseWP.
 
Loss Leader said:
That woman was Kitty GenoveseWP.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm
The most notorious example was a woman who was attacked in the street outside a number of apartment buildings, with hundreds of witnesses, and not one person called the police. This was presented by the media as an example of how much society has degraded in modern times.
Click to expand...

not to sidetrack this thread but who thinks we are that much different than the society the Good Samaritan story was aimed at.


Because I am interested in knowing how often were planes intercepted in the US. Was D B Coopers plane?
 
Eeyore1954

IIRC tried to follow the plane which was Boeing 727 - what "DB COOPER"
did was order flight crew to lower back boarding stairs and fly at about
150 kts. FBI tried to follow in helicopter, even flat out was too slow to
keep up with plane, also was too slow for military jets to follow.
 
eeyore1954 said:
Because I am interested in knowing how often were planes intercepted in the US. Was D B Coopers plane?
Click to expand...


No hijacked aircraft over US Airspace had ever been intercepted by NORAD prior to 9/11.

-Gumboot
 
OF course if JohnDOe or Fetzer had been flying the planes they would have repelled the hijackers.
Click to expand...

Then they would have landed the planes single-handedly. 'Cause that's the sort of macho, ueber-competent guys they are.

The mind of the average 15-25 year old that is a truther, applies a post 9/11 standard to a 9/11 event, which makes it fundamentally flawed from the outset.
Click to expand...

Add to that a steady diet of gung-ho action flics, in which Our Hero, a plain but patriotic guy, overcomes the Bad Guys using his super-intelligence and world-class unarmed combat techniques (learned, of course, from said action flics) - how hard could it be to overcome a conspiracy put together by a bunch of cave dwellers? James Bond and Tom Cruise (I'm blanking on the character he played in MI) do it iin less than 2 hours, with plenty of time for the ladies. How hard can it be? Doesn't it always work out for the good guys in the last reel? Now throw in an at best supercifial understanding of how the physical world works and the end result is a sterotypical conspiracy theorist.


ust what I was getting ready to mention. We really don't know whether they used boxcutters on all flights - "cardboard cutters" were only mentioned on Flight 77 - the others only mentioned knives or "stabbings" in a general way. Plastic resin knives can be procured which are as sharp and as strong as a steel knife, but invisible to X-rays and airport security. There is a host of weaponry available to terrorists and criminals that the public may not realize exist -
Click to expand...

You can make a very effective cutting weapon from an aluminum soda can using only your bare hands. I haven't done the experiment myself, but I imagine one could find all sorts of potentially lethal weapons today in the after-security area of most larger US airports. Scarfs, ties, belts, blunt objects - a lot of things can be deadly in the hands of someone willing to use them that way, and who doesn't care if he or she dies in the attempt.

Re plastic knives: you can get a nasty cut from those cheap serrated plastic knives airlines use these days. I speak from experience here.
 
Retrograde said:
I haven't done the experiment myself, but I imagine one could find all sorts of potentially lethal weapons today in the after-security area of most larger US airports. Scarfs, ties, belts, blunt objects - a lot of things can be deadly in the hands of someone willing to use them that way, and who doesn't care if he or she dies in the attempt.
Click to expand...

Improvised weapons expand the playing field considerably. Precisely why the pilot's reaction to the so-called "flying imams" was spot-on. They all asked for belt extenders - despite not being overweight or unable to use the standard airline seat belt. With the sturdy webbing and steel buckle, the extenders could be a very effective improvised weapon.
 
After Sept 11 studied what type of improvised weapons could be fashioned
on spot. Japanese martial arms have many types of improvised weapons
under term "small common objects" - things normally carried not likely to
be suspect. Many were used by common people during Shogun era (1600-
1850) when much of population were disarmed, only samurai allowed swords
and daggers over certain length. Most were based on "yarawa bo" (yarawa
stick) - piece of wood about 6-8inch (15-20cm) in length which could be
improvised out of common objects like writing brush. The "kubotan" is a
modern implementation of key ring and yarawa (and is specifly banned from
aircraft) Many common items like metal pen (Cross or Mont Blanc), rat tail
comb, metal flashlight (MAGLITE) can be used - yarawa can be used for jabs
at sensitive areas (solar plexus, joints, throat, face) and pressure points.
Also can be used to cause severe pain to immobilize arms/hands and force
compliance. Another thing is "tessen" (iron hand or fist - metal rod 8-10
inches (200-250cm)) to strike or jab with. Modern equal is roll of coins
(quarters or nickels) clenched in fist. Wrapped in scarf or handkerchief is
effective as a sap or blackjack (tried this with roll of nickels and struck my
hand - damn ! thought I busted it hurt so much!). Another thing is chain
to parry or strike with - lock device for laptops functions same way. Even
tightly rolled up magazines can be used as weapon. Coats/books and other
things used as shield to block blows. There are many other ways to fashion
improvised wepaons on spot to defend yourself.
 
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