So, let's talk energy policies!

Tsukasa Buddha

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  • So McCain wants to lift the ban on off shore drilling. Obama doesn't.
Personally, I'd go with McCain. As long as it doesn't require government investment and all we need to do is lift the ban.


  • McCain wants a gas tax holiday, and Obama doesn't.
I go with Obama on this. The gas tax is really iffy if you talk to elite economists.


  • Obama wants to cut the Enron loophole and increase regulation on oil speculators. McCain hasn't said anything about this.
I agree with Obama on this. Economists have been saying that there is a large speculation bubble going on at the moment.

The newsperson today was saying that this was too obscure a concept for the average American, but I disagree. My dad has been ranting about speculators of years, and he is a Republican and not an elitist.


  • Obama wants to spend 160 billion on developing alternative energy. I'm going to take a wild guess that McCain is against that :p .
I agree. We need to increase our scientific R&D spending.


  • McCain will give a five thousand dollar tax break per customer for car companies that make a zero emission car. Obama hasn't said anything about this.
  • He will also have a 300 million dollar tax break as an award for anyone who develops a good car battery for hybrids/ electric cars (or something like that). Obama hasn't said anything about that.
Now this is interesting. This is the free market aspect of McCain. I rather like this too. But it is different than actually funding research. This could get more people working for less, but it doesn't guarantee work being done.

Can't we have both :p ? I want to just combine both their plans.


  • Both are for carbon cap and trade.
Personally, I like the carbon tax better, and it is recommended by economists. But, of course, it would be politically impossible.
 
I think your assessments are dead on.

Although, I'm not fully convinced of the advantage of off shore oil drilling. Does it provide a sizable enough oil supply to greatly reduce oil costs? It really seems like a bandaid fix to a crack in the dam.

Also, I do not think McCain's Freemarket incentive approach would work in gas prices plummet again.

We must remember that back in the late 70s, fuel efficiency was everything. There was even deisel cars as an answer to the inflated gas prices. But in the late 80s when gas dropped in price dramatically, GM sold the heck out of SUVs with a "gas be damned" approach. Only now, that gas concerns are being felt, do we see any real attempt by GM to make fuel efficient cars.

But a combined approach: Market incentives for immediate solution needs, and research investment for long term vision and development of alternative energy needs.
 
, I'm not fully convinced of the advantage of off shore oil drilling. Does it provide a sizable enough oil supply to greatly reduce oil costs? It really seems like a bandaid fix to a crack in the dam.

I had read the Chinese are looking at drilling it out though. So if it's going to be drilled, may as well be drilled by us. Of course if Obama's plan is not to drill it but to make sure that no one else does either and save it for another time, either's plan is fine.

And, what is the alternative energy the 160 billion is going towards? Everything but nuclear?
 
I had read the Chinese are looking at drilling it out though. So if it's going to be drilled, may as well be drilled by us. Of course if Obama's plan is not to drill it but to make sure that no one else does either and save it for another time, either's plan is fine.

And, what is the alternative energy the 160 billion is going towards? Everything but nuclear?

Well, I am pretty sure that Chinese story was false, but I really don't see off shore drilling making too much of a benefit, but I don't see any compelling reason to keep a ban.

Oh, and thanks for bringing up the nuclear issue.

McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 20XX (I forget the exact date). Obama says nuclear is a component of an energy plan, but we need to fix concerns about security and waste management.

I... agree with both? :p

Oh, and both support "clean coal".

Which, IIRC, is just a propagandist oxymoron. But hey, better than what we have now. I just don't see it as a real solution.
 
I had read the Chinese are looking at drilling it out though. So if it's going to be drilled, may as well be drilled by us. Of course if Obama's plan is not to drill it but to make sure that no one else does either and save it for another time, either's plan is fine.

And, what is the alternative energy the 160 billion is going towards? Everything but nuclear?
But what does that mean, drilled by us? How does an american company drilling for oil help the United States. Will there be subsidies on what americans pay for gas? Will the oil companies chagre americans less for oil? Will americans benefit because the american companies will pay taxes? Or ist the thought that american companies will pump to maintain low barrel prices? Why should they do that?


I'm not being facetious but rather I do not understand. Oil companies are beholden to thier shareholders not america.
 
Obama supports ethanol. Not good.
yeah, ethanol is highly questionable. If a cheap method of cellulose derived ethonol is developed, that may be one thing. However, food-to-ethanol is not smart. (not to mention it's just bad on engines, seals, poor energy density, doesn't avoid carbon emissions...)
 
But what does that mean, drilled by us? How does an american company drilling for oil help the United States. Will there be subsidies on what americans pay for gas? Will the oil companies chagre americans less for oil? Will americans benefit because the american companies will pay taxes? Or ist the thought that american companies will pump to maintain low barrel prices? Why should they do that?


I'm not being facetious but rather I do not understand. Oil companies are beholden to thier shareholders not america.

You know, actually I have no idea. Just seems wrong to have all this oil there, and sit back and let anyone come in and just take it. It'd be like if they came here and started cutting down trees and we were like "eh, we weren't going to cut those down anyway" and watch them cut down all the trees.

You know what I mean? At least if an American company is handling this, either the oil, or the money, or both is staying in American hands. They should at least claim it so even if they're not going to drill it, the US can sell the claim.
 
Does McCain support ethanol? Did he vote for any of the miscellaneous farm bills with their outrageous ethanol subsidies?

He used to, he no longer does and voted against the last bill subsidizing corn ethanol (less than a month ago I believe).
 
* McCain will give a five thousand dollar tax break per customer for car companies that make a zero emission car. Obama hasn't said anything about this.
* He will also have a 300 million dollar tax break as an award for anyone who develops a good car battery for hybrids/ electric cars (or something like that). Obama hasn't said anything about that.
Great that's just as useless as Bush's energy policy. A 300 million dollar tax break is laughable and quite honestly an attention grab for votes.
 
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  • So McCain wants to lift the ban on off shore drilling. Obama doesn't.
I go with Obama, but not as much because of the environment (which offshore drilling barely affects) but because I want to save it for later. I don't know if Obama cynically thinks this too, but he's closer to my position, regardless of the reason.


McCain wants a gas tax holiday, and Obama doesn't.I go with Obama on this. The gas tax is really iffy if you talk to elite economists.

The gas tax holiday is a stupid, cosmetic idea. But it doesn't really hurt anything much in the long term, so I can't say that McCain is wrong to support it. They are, after all, running for president.

  • Obama wants to cut the Enron loophole and increase regulation on oil speculators. McCain hasn't said anything about this.
I agree with Obama on this. Economists have been saying that there is a large speculation bubble going on at the moment.
I agree with you (and your dad, and Obama) here. These under-the-radar dealings have a lot greater influence on our economy than people realize. Even if it hurts my company, I want it under control.


  • Obama wants to spend 160 billion on developing alternative energy. I'm going to take a wild guess that McCain is against that :p .
I agree. We need to increase our scientific R&D spending.
Iffy question. Shouldn't the companies that are going to benefit from alternative energy fund their own research? Well, maybe not. Maybe we need some "pure research" that is untainted by pragmatism too. As a scientist, I tend to give the nod to investing money in science, but I recognize that I might be prejudiced. I'll abstain due to partiality.


  • McCain will give a five thousand dollar tax break per customer for car companies that make a zero emission car. Obama hasn't said anything about this.
  • He will also have a 300 million dollar tax break as an award for anyone who develops a good car battery for hybrids/ electric cars (or something like that). Obama hasn't said anything about that.
Now this is interesting. This is the free market aspect of McCain. I rather like this too. But it is different than actually funding research. This could get more people working for less, but it doesn't guarantee work being done.
I agree with it in principle, but it's a cheap trick. There cannot be a "zero emission" car unless you totally redefine emissions. Fricken horses have emissions. The 300 mill award sounds nice but it will pale in comparison to the profit to be gained via the market for doing such a thing. This is all for show. Perhaps Obama will join in (or make similar symbolic but pointless gestures) or perhaps he'll point out the shallowness of it. Either way, it is a non-issue.

  • Both are for carbon cap and trade.
Personally, I like the carbon tax better, and it is recommended by economists. But, of course, it would be politically impossible.
The problem with elections is that it is necessary to promise the impossible. Once you get elected, you start working on your excuses.

An honest politician would pledge to dedicate time and effort to solving these problems and cite some realistic and concrete ways of working toward the goals.

But honest politicians don't get elected. They are too boring. Voters want cheap tricks and blustering rhetoric. If you don't provide them, you will lose.
 
  • Both are for carbon cap and trade.
Personally, I like the carbon tax better, and it is recommended by economists. But, of course, it would be politically impossible.

Why do you prefer the carbon tax? (over cap and trade)
 
Great that's just as useless as Bush's energy policy. A 300 million dollar tax break is laughable and quite honestly an attention grab for votes.

What planet are you living on? I suppose the xprize was a joke as well? This is an innovation and invention incentive.

If you had any idea how hard its been for car makers to switch to Lithion batteries over current batteries.....

Never mind, its not worth wasting my time. You replied that way because your mind is already made up.
 
  • Obama wants to cut the Enron loophole and increase regulation on oil speculators. McCain hasn't said anything about this.
I agree with Obama on this. Economists have been saying that there is a large speculation bubble going on at the moment.

McCain is for this also.

McCain's campaign quickly fired back that McCain had long spoken out against the Enron Loophole, named for the Houston-based energy company that sought the change.

Obama is "following John McCain's lead" in opposing the Enron Loophole and playing partisan politics, said McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds.

Bounds also pointed out that the Enron measure was supported by many Democrats, including former President Clinton, and that McCain voted in 2003 to close the loophole.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5851138.html


Does McCain support ethanol? Did he vote for any of the miscellaneous farm bills with their outrageous ethanol subsidies?

McCain has proposed phasing out ethanol subsidies, and no.

http://www.drake.edu/journalism/CyberCaucus2000/whodebate-f.html
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/4/24/mccain-nuclear-good-ethanol-bad.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-15-clinton-mccain_N.htm
 

    • Obama wants to spend 160 billion on developing alternative energy. I'm going to take a wild guess that McCain is against that :p .
    I agree. We need to increase our scientific R&D spending.



  • Do you have a source which says how the money will be spent or where it will come from? I admit I'm ignorant on this proposal.
 
Do you have a source which says how the money will be spent or where it will come from? I admit I'm ignorant on this proposal.
If I had to guess, it'll get funnelled through the DOE and their office of science. The fashion in research funding these days are huge grants focused on multidisciplinary support. So, again, I'm going to guess that a large part of this money will be given to seting up (or expanding existing) research centers, which support multiple investigators.

But that is pure speculation.
 
He used to, he no longer does and voted against the last bill subsidizing corn ethanol (less than a month ago I believe).

Rats.

I say that because I am inclined to vote for Obama, but it's the kind of issue that might really make a difference to me. I've decided I really hate our ethanol policy.
 
Rats.

I say that because I am inclined to vote for Obama, but it's the kind of issue that might really make a difference to me. I've decided I really hate our ethanol policy.

There was an article in today's NYT about Obama buddying up with the ethanol lobby.

Obama Camp Closely Linked With Ethanol


Ethanol is one area in which Mr. Obama strongly disagrees with his Republican opponent, Senator John McCain of Arizona. While both presidential candidates emphasize the need for the United States to achieve “energy security” while also slowing down the carbon emissions that are believed to contribute to global warming, they offer sharply different visions of the role that ethanol, which can be made from a variety of organic materials, should play in those efforts.

Mr. McCain advocates eliminating the multibillion-dollar annual government subsidies that domestic ethanol has long enjoyed. As a free trade advocate, he also opposes the 54-cent-a-gallon tariff that the United States slaps on imports of ethanol made from sugar cane, which packs more of an energy punch than corn-based ethanol and is cheaper to produce.

Disappointing. Why do political candidates always have to be kind of right and kind of wrong? Why can't one be all right and the other be all wrong?
 

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