So do you believe in magic or sorcery?

[DangerousBeliefs]

I was just wondering for those who believe in the Bible, do you believe in magic or sorcery? That witches and wizards truly walk the earth?

And do you have an evidence or anecdotes to back this belief up?

Or is it because the Bible mentions it so it must be true?

 

[The GM]

Of course it really exists, just go check out any new age book store. There's tons of manuals on the subject. Witches and sorcerers are real too. You can find their web pages all over the internet.
Now does that mean that magic actually works? Well, if I can get it to, I'm applying for the cool mil!
I would say at this point, there is no evidence to support 'functional' magic. Doesn't matter what the bible has to say about it, if 'magic' doesn't work, there's no reason to be afraid of it.

 

[KS_SKEPTIC]

I was just wondering for those who believe in the Bible, do you believe in magic or sorcery? That witches and wizards truly walk the earth?

And do you have an evidence or anecdotes to back this belief up?

Or is it because the Bible mentions it so it must be true?

There are people who are called witches who practice Wicca.

Christians whether they like to admit it or not believe in magic and sorcery simply because the Bible is full of it.
Walking on water, raising the dead, healing the sick by magical means, changing water to wine, talking animals, telling the future by prophecy, and so on.
This is just a small part of the Christian myth's & legends that are in the Bible!
If one was to study Greek, Norse, Egyptian mythology etc. etc.
One would find that Christian mythology is not unique in the lease.
In fact the Christian Church had actually absorbed many of the pagan traditions into their own religion.
That's one of the main reasons we have holidays like Easter, Christmas, etc... That are connected to paganism in origin.

 

[Yahweh]

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

Numbers 24:8
God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce [them] through with his arrows.

Job 39:9
Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

Job 39:10
Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

Psalms 29:6
He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.

Psalms 92:10
But my horn shalt thou exalt like [the horn of] an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

And also many references to the word dragon.


I think for the most part, Christians do not believe in witches, unicorns, dragons, or sorcery.

(I dont think the word "witch" in Christianity has anything to do with the word "witch" in Wicca. The same word to describe unrelated concepts.)

 

[Ratman_tf]

It always interested me that Pharaoh's wise men could turn sticks to snakes like Moses, but Moses's snake was stronger and ate the others. Does that mean that Moses's god was more powerful than Pharaoh's? Like Ra and Yahweh were arm wrestling in the heavens over the Jews?

 

[Bikewer]

In "Lost Christianities", the author details a number of accounts of magical "duels" between Simon Magus and Paul, one occurring on the Roman Senate floor! (these are in various "non-canonical" gospels and books.)

 

[geni]

It always interested me that Pharaoh's wise men could turn sticks to snakes like Moses, but Moses's snake was stronger and ate the others. Does that mean that Moses's god was more powerful than Pharaoh's? Like Ra and Yahweh were arm wrestling in the heavens over the Jews?

As portrayed in the old testiment probably. Wern't the magicians of egypt also able to do the rivers of blood thing?

 

[MLynn]

Leviticus 19:31 (NASB): "Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out ot be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God."

Leviticus 20:6: "As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people."

In the NASB translation of the Bible, the term, "wild ox" is used instead of "unicorn."

 

[c4ts]

The way I see it, the fundies believe in magic and witchcraft so much that they see it as other gods competing with their god. I don't know about the rest of Christianity, except for the faith healers, poison snake guys, and the rest of those kind of people. They might view parts of the bible as mythology that isn't literally true.

 

[Yahweh]

In the NASB translation of the Bible, the term, "wild ox" is used instead of "unicorn."

Ah, thank you

I searched Blue Letter Bible quickly and forgot to add SAB's "'unicorn' is a mistranslation" disclaimer.

 

[Dancing David]

It sure seems that way , especialy for the strict interpretation crowd. I have been told that it is an OLD DAYS kind of phenomena, in the past you could work miracles but not anyome.

Of course magic and sorcery works, it sure causes enough soccer riots in Africa! Magic is a way of creating mental spaces for certain effects, if one wishes to work agaisnt nature, then well, magic is about as succesful as anything else.

Magic is the Art and Science of causing change in conformity with will. - A. Crowley

 

[Upchurch]

I was just wondering for those who believe in the Bible, do you believe in magic or sorcery? That witches and wizards truly walk the earth?

I don't believe in the Bible (at least, not as an authority about the nature of the world), but I do play Dungeons & Dragons from time to time. So, naturally I believe in witches and wizards.

 

[BoulderHead`]

I was just wondering for those who believe in the Bible, do you believe in magic or sorcery? That witches and wizards truly walk the earth?

I do not qualify as a believer in the Bible, but I know first hand a good number of believers who accept the existence of such things as fact….

And do you have an evidence or anecdotes to back this belief up?

….without firsthand knowledge….

Or is it because the Bible mentions it so it must be true?

….but because of things mentioned in the Bible.

The most prevalent theme shared by these individuals was that if such things existed in Biblical times then it only made good sense that such things still exist even in modern times. Demons must exist, for example, because there is a story in the Bible where Jesus seems to have taken pity on a legion of them, granting their request to enter into a herd of swine (at the expense of destroying some poor bastard’s livelihood).
When it is believed that devils and demons exist, it isn’t too far a jump to also believe in interactions between these entities and human beings…. Wahlah, witness the satanic birth of witches and wizards ! *

*as told to me by believers themselves over the course of my life*

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

I would say that "magick," or actual sorcery, is quite real and valid in its own right. It is a religious philosophy, and does not claim to offer scientifically objective explanations of observed phenomena. Rather, the primary objective of a "magickian" is to build an empowered self-identity that enables him or her to to do what he or she wishes to do in life.

"Magick" is an amalgamation of masonic rituals, eastern mysticism, and parts of modern psychology. It uses some scientific principles to justify its theories.

Much of magick requires use of the imagination and creative thought. While it is a structured practice, it isn't exactly about the pursuit of objective truth. Rather, magick is about the exploration of the self.

As I am an artist, (and not a scientist,) magickal philosophy provides me with a structured way of exploring mythology and the imagination. However, I certainly would not want my doctor performing rituals to try to cure me.

I believe the "subtle energies" and other paranormal phenomena described in magick can be viewed as abstractions. The various entities and Gods and Goddesses of magick represent different thought patterns and various poetic concepts.

The strange language of magick can be useful (to some) to describe complicated feelings and emotions.

I personally don't find magick to be in conflict with science. I read magickal theory with a sense of humor and take what I need from it.

Now, that said, there are a number of "magickians" on the internet who seriously claim to have super-powers. These people, in my opinion, mar the validity of real magick.

How do we deal with them? Well, I say, don't just dismiss them. Make them test their claims, objectively, using REAL scientific trials.

I see the bible as a story that is "real" when you are in the midst of reading it. It deals with "real" human conflicts and emotions. Still, it isn't one of my favorite stories...

I welcome any disagreement or other comments.

 

[Zombified]

If "magick" to you is just a philosophy and you're not claiming to have any paranormal powers, then fine, whatever, I won't pick any fights with it.

This, however, I have a small objection to:

It uses some scientific principles to justify its theories.

All I've ever heard is using some scientific-sounding words and analogies, not actual science. Unfortunately, many people who think they have magical powers also justify their theories with obscure references to scientific-sounding but bogus analogies. I'm curious to know what scientific principles you think "magick" applies (excluding psychology).

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

I make no claim that magickal theory is objectively true. Again, it is a ritualistic practice that many find beneficial.

It's all about constructing a personal mythology, and not about discovering objective truth. This sounds entirely goofy from a scientific standpoint, but from an artistic standpoint, it makes quite a lot of sense.

Without the arts and creativity, there isn't much inspiration for science. Both the irrational and rational are needed for human progress to occur (so I would argue.)

Magick addresses the irrational, chaotic aspects of the human mind, and attempts to give them some structure through ritual. Great personal insight can be gained from delving into these realms...(but of course, that's my opinion.)

The "jargon" is great fun, isn't it? I'm all for it, I love paranormal theory and eccentric ideas. There is a strange neccesity for folklore and mythology that I don't think can be explained as simply being "escapism." We really do seem to need this stuff.

That said, we also need a grounding in reason and science. Otherwise we end up with things like government funded psychic programs and "health supplements."

 

[Bubbles]

I am a Christian. I'm not a literalist.

Being a Christian, I believe in the possibility of miracles, but I don't think that is what we mean by witchcraft and such.

I assume that we mean something like "If person A combines the right ingrediants while saying the proper words under the proper circumstances, person B will get jock itch".

The difference, I mean, is that a miracle would be an event that was of neither deterministic or random origin. It would be an act of free mind and will. Magic (at least as I understand the term) works mechanically. There is simply a causal relationship between the spell and the outcome.

I can't disprove witchcraft, and neither can I prove it. I have no experience of it. If I had to choose one side or the other I would decline to believe in witchcraft. I generally maintain my agnosticism, though.

 

[Zombified]

I make no claim that magickal theory is objectively true. Again, it is a ritualistic practice that many find beneficial.

It's all about constructing a personal mythology, and not about discovering objective truth. This sounds entirely goofy from a scientific standpoint, but from an artistic standpoint, it makes quite a lot of sense.

I have no objection to this, as long as people are clear about the objective truth part.

Without the arts and creativity, there isn't much inspiration for science. Both the irrational and rational are needed for human progress to occur (so I would argue.)

I'm not sure how I feel about this. There's plenty of inspiration to be found in simple curiosity, and I consider that a powerful force. Perhaps this is what you consider to be irrational. Of course, science is an extremely creative endeavor, although people who've never tried it often do not realize this.

The "jargon" is great fun, isn't it? I'm all for it, I love paranormal theory and eccentric ideas. There is a strange neccesity for folklore and mythology that I don't think can be explained as simply being "escapism." We really do seem to need this stuff.

While I agree there is a powerful pull towards it (after all, I'm a D&D playing Tolkein nerd), I do think in my case is really is escapism. But I do not have a problem with escapism so long as people are clear on when it is happening.

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

Thanks for the feedback, Zombified. I agree, science is an extremely creative endeavor. I have family members who are researchers and I know that it isn't simply following rules or going through a routine. That said, I find that many scientists draw inspiration from the arts, religion, and mystic philosophy.

The human mind can operate in many different ways, and people have discovered how to "access" different ways of thinking through altered states. I believe that these ways of thinking can actually be productive.

I believe that the ritualistic experience is critical to the development of new forms of language, and to the development of new paradigms. It seems to be a integral part of human behavior, and I don't think that is simply escapism.

This is something I think should be studied by real science, and not just by pseudo-scientific institutions such as the "Monroe Institute," which seem intent on just selling self-help tapes for lots of money.

Anyway, there are, as you know, compelling arguments for both sides of the issue.

 

[Skyknight]

Most christians do believe in it to a certain degree, but some don't and take it in another direction.

Two examples:

Woman A is a University educated, law school graduate that at 21 started to article at a law firm downtown. She's a christian that goes to church every week and prays every day, she's very intelligent and believes firmly in the bible and her god. When I asked her if she believed in magic, witches and curses she thought for a moment and said, "yes". When pressed as to why she simply said, "I believe that God can do miracles, and others in his service can also perform feats that are nothing less than miraculous. So if blessings exist from God, then curses must also exist. If Satan can curse, then others in his service (those of course being witches and sorcerers) can also cast curses."

Woman B is University educated, still not finished her degree and is currently taking anthropology as her major. She's a christian that goes to church every week, and while not agnostic or atheist, she doesn't believe that the bible is a literal tale. When asked if she believed in such things she answered, "hell no! The entire idea of a 'witch' is based on the woman being a healer, midwife and knowing herbology. Witches (other than wiccans) don't really exist and those that claim they are witches are just Goth kids running around in costumes and pretending like they're so connected to the Earth. Magic doesn't exist in the real world, it's all fairy tales and make believe."