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Smooth Move Barack

corplinx

JREF Kid
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
8,952
Source: AP
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_POLITICS?SITE=PASTR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I doubt he meant anything maliciousness but I'm sure it will be the non-issue of the day in the opinion-media.
He needs to get some people on his team to brief him up on facts, rather than on media sound bytes, regarding international things. I find it hard to believe that he would make such a comment were he even modestly well briefed on the whole spectrum of what is going on in Afghanistan.

He's a Senator. Does he not avail himself of briefers who actually know what is going on?

DR
 
I see this type of thing as his achilles(sp?) heal. It points out his lack of experience. It's why I believe his real cahnce will be in 2012, once he has learned a few lessons this time around.
 
I'm trying to understand what is so wrong about the quote. It certainly seems Afghanistan has been on the back burner compared to Iraq, and progress weak. It seems US actions have done as much to alienate as win over the locals.
 
Try reading it.


I did. It sounds like he's saying the US is making lots of dust in Afghanistan, annoying locals, and not moving toward any significant goal. If that's not what he meant, I'm willing to listen.
 
I did. It sounds like he's saying the US is making lots of dust in Afghanistan, annoying locals, and not moving toward any significant goal. If that's not what he meant, I'm willing to listen.

That is exactly what I think he meant also.

However, he said:
"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous pressure over there."

On the surface without guessing what he means, he is saying that are just air-raiding villages and killing civillians because we don't have enough troops there.
 
....On the surface without guessing what he means, he is saying that are just air-raiding villages and killing civillians because we don't have enough troops there.

Funnily enough, the British military are saying exactly the same thing. Obama may well have a bloody good point.

The Guardian said:

Read that link carefully. It's also an interesting example of airpower alone not winning wars; only boots on the ground, only grunts in the grass, win the war and not just the battles. Quite easy to win all the battles and lose the war. been done before. An interesting refutation of those who claim airpower as a miracle cure.
 
Read that link carefully. It's also an interesting example of airpower alone not winning wars; only boots on the ground, only grunts in the grass, win the war and not just the battles. Quite easy to win all the battles and lose the war. been done before. An interesting refutation of those who claim airpower as a miracle cure.
You think more troops on the ground in Afghanistan will lead to fewer deaths of civilians?

eta: And how many "boots on the ground" did it take for the USSR to pacify the place?
 
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It's also an interesting example of airpower alone not winning wars; only boots on the ground, only grunts in the grass, win the war and not just the battles. Quite easy to win all the battles and lose the war. been done before. An interesting refutation of those who claim airpower as a miracle cure.
You might find BeAChooser chiming in here pretty soon.

It is curious to see the Spec Ops guys taking a facial, as four years ago there were a number of accounts in the American Media of the American Spec Ops guys ranting about how clumsily the regular troops, from the 82d or the 101st, were acting, and by doing so and ruining relationships built over months and years by Spec Ops folks, via the door smashing, SWAT tactics that were not uncommon in some sectors in Afghanistan. The problem is that the US has attempted to convince itself, and the world, that the use of airpower as a force multiplier can always be applied like a scalpel. Sometimes it can, and sometimes it can't. The nature of war is such that targeting and "perfect knowledge of the target area" is never complete.

Tactically, special ops teams are light, very light, in terms of armament and firepower. They habitually call on air power to ensure they win engagements. Losing the firefight is not an option. The have no artillery, and typically no mortars. In rough terrain, where indirect fire is a necessary tool, air is a desicisve advantage. Its limitation are well known in both regular and Spec Ops circles. The disagreement between ISAF and the CJTF, regarding RoE and other tactical decision making, goes back to the beginning of the Operations in Afghanistan, and the stand up of ISAF. Typical Coalition Warfare friction. This report is nothing unusual in that regard, and as I see it a tempest in a tea pot.
Officers also argue that where Taliban fighters mount ambushes from inside heavily populated areas, civilian deaths are unavoidable. "When you are working in a high intensity counter insurgency environment like this, regrettably you are going to have civilian casualties," Col Mayo said.
The other problem is that this officer is speaking from within his own stovepipe. He sees the world through his own lens, which colors his views, and from his mission and how well he feels he can accomplish it.

DR
 
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Obama seems to have a bad case of foot in mouth disease.
I agree with the point he is trying to make about the way that the Bush Adminsitration has sacarificed fighting Al Quida and the Taliaban in Afghanistan for their monumental fiasco in Iraq,but damn it Obama,you got to learn to Think before you speak and be careful when you phrase something not to give you opponents a club to beat you with.
Every candidate messes up once in a while with a badly phrased statement,but Obama seems to do it a LOT more then most.
And Foot In Mouth disease can be fatal to a political candidate.
The Longer I Live the more I realise greater wisdom was never uttered then the old saying 'It"s Not What You Say But How You Sat It That Makes Or Breakes A Case".
 
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I dunno, foot in mouth disease didn't hurt Bush too much. To the extent that this is a flub on Obama's part is a tempest in a teapot.

You think more troops on the ground in Afghanistan will lead to fewer deaths of civilians?

eta: And how many "boots on the ground" did it take for the USSR to pacify the place?

It's difficult to determine if more boots on the ground would lead to fewer civilian deaths. In the short term, at least, I can see increased civilian deaths, as fighting may escalate. Ideally in the long term, I suppose the goal of such a policy would be that lives of Afghanistanis will be better as a result.

Then again, foreign plans for the the region rarely seem to pan out as planned.
 
You think more troops on the ground in Afghanistan will lead to fewer deaths of civilians?

Should I spell it out in far greater detail?

Instead of relying on Special Forces units, with consequent problems, Afghanistan should have been done properly. Massive occupation and proper policing.

It certainly would mean less reliance on airpower with consequent targeting problems. Guess why the British military are being so vocal?

eta: And how many "boots on the ground" did it take for the USSR to pacify the place?

Tell me, while I like one-liners, what is the relevance of your remark? If you think Afghanistan is unwinnable, then you should be saying there should have been an immediate pull-out after toppling the Taliban.

BTW, the USSR relied a good deal on airpower.
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You might find BeAChooser chiming in here pretty soon.

I prefer Shanek. Shanek makes more sense and is far less longwinded.

It is curious to see the Spec Ops guys taking a facial, as four years ago
History is frequently ironical.

The disagreement between ISAF and the CJTF, regarding RoE and other tactical decision making, goes back to the beginning of the Operations in Afghanistan, and the stand up of ISAF. Typical Coalition Warfare friction. This report is nothing unusual in that regard, and as I see it a tempest in a tea pot.

I disagree (OK, OK, the Pope is a Catholic too).

Afghanistan from an occupation viewpoint is largely a NATO effort; from a vicious-fighting viewpoint, it's largely a Brit effort.

There is a huge amount of open pessimism and alarm coming from all layers of British forces in Afghanistan at this time, including from the very very top levels of command, to the effect that the war in Afghanistan is being lost, and lost badly.

The other problem is that this officer is speaking from within his own stovepipe. He sees the world through his own lens, which colors his views, and from his mission and how well he feels he can accomplish it.

Beg to differ again. This is far more than one officer shooting his mouth off.
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I dunno, foot in mouth disease didn't hurt Bush too much. To the extent that this is a flub on Obama's part is a tempest in a teapot.

I don't think it's a flub.

It's difficult to determine if more boots on the ground would lead to fewer civilian deaths. In the short term, at least, I can see increased civilian deaths, as fighting may escalate. Ideally in the long term, I suppose the goal of such a policy would be that lives of Afghanistanis will be better as a result.
Well, I guess we all hope the lives of Afghanis will be better off as a result, especially the Afghanis themselves. I wish to hell the war in Afghanistan at least had succeeded. The outlook looks very grim at the moment.

I won't bother with links and stuff; there is enough stuff on the BBC and The Guardian for those who want to look, and I hear direct from a few of those in the Brit force too. It depresses me.

Then again, foreign plans for the the region rarely seem to pan out as planned.

Elphinstone, Elphinstone, give me back my 3 eagles.
 
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You think more troops on the ground in Afghanistan will lead to fewer deaths of civilians?

eta: And how many "boots on the ground" did it take for the USSR to pacify the place?

We have a slight advanatage. For the most part we are only fighting the pashtuns and not the northen tribes so much. The supply of weaponary is also more limited.
 
Should I spell it out in far greater detail?

Instead of relying on Special Forces units, with consequent problems, Afghanistan should have been done properly. Massive occupation and proper policing.

Would end up like Iraq at best. You can't occupy the north to that degree without anoying the northen tribes. You also have the problem that the southern warlords and tribal leaders might also chose to dirrectly oppose you. You have to tone down the appearance of being an occupying force.


There is a huge amount of open pessimism and alarm coming from all layers of British forces in Afghanistan at this time, including from the very very top levels of command, to the effect that the war in Afghanistan is being lost, and lost badly.

Appears to be pretty much a draw at the moment. The north is fairly solid and as long as the troops hang around in the south the pashtuns taliban are limited in the kind of operations they can mount. Problem is the pashtuns are not going to quit and we can't stay there forever.
 
Bah, he's young. I still refuse to think he is an unintelligent man.

We'd all cock up like Obama does if we were his age.

It's just a shame we are in a world in which we are, at the moment, 95% focused on foreign policy. Obama has little to no experience apart from growing up in Indonesia before the Islamic revolution. If we were focused on domestic issues, it may be more likely that he would be flying high in the polls.
 
A gaffe is when a politician accidentally speaks the truth.

Well, I don't think he really meant that the current situation is that "we are just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" but taken out of context and without giving him the benefit of the doubt, it could be taken to mean that.
 

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