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Sleep?

Ceritus

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Jul 28, 2005
Messages
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How much sleep does the human being really need? Is it absolutley true that working shift work changing sleep patterns every week is severely detrimental to ones health?

Are naps really worthwhile? Would sleeping 12hours a day in 1 hour portions be better for you than sleeping one 6 hour session?

I am sooooo tired at work trying to stay awake working mids.......

I just need a better plan I think.
 
I think the best answer is that it depends on a lot of factors. eacg personal has individual needs and patterns. Some people adapt to shift work , others don't. While many people can sleep in naps, many can not.
Then you add in the use of stimulants, external light and noise and it gets even more complicated.

There are many good sources on sleep hygiene, as it is called. How many hours of sleep do you get? Were you fatigued before you started shift work?
 
Dancing David said:
There are many good sources on sleep hygiene, as it is called. How many hours of sleep do you get? Were you fatigued before you started shift work?
Click to expand...

I get anywhere between 2 hours and 12hours of sleep a night. I tend to sleep about 4 hours a night on weekdays and 12hours on weekends but when I start off on monday at 12:01 am when I work mids, I dont get any sleep that day. Sometimes I get up right before work then work my shift than am unable to sleep until I finish my 2nd shift the following day.

Before shift work which was about.... 6 years ago I think. I was much younger then being a strapping 18 yr-old I never felt fatigued. I would sleep on average of 5 hours a night sometimes less but rarely ever more.

I have even stayed up for entire 5 day periods just to sleep the entire weekend through only getting up to drink water and use the bathroom.

I have noticed one thing though, when my sleep became inconsistant I began to show signs of depression, but that could be attributed to military life or numerous other things.


Ironically I believe it was the lack of sleep that awakened me to critical thought. I honestly don't believe I knew how to learn or deduce problems until I felt fatigued.
 
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A lot depends on how old you are: amount of sleep required tends to reduce with age. Disrupted sleep patterns can still result in problems, however.

From personal experience, I found that when I was an undergrad and my hours were all over the place due to a complete absence of organisational skills, 'all-nighters' were the only way to get things done, usually the day before things were due in, and on occasion the day after :) (On one occasion, a double all-nighter, followed by a birthday night out, meant about 60 hours with little or no sleep, I thought I was close to death, and probably was)

I discovered that half-hour power naps made me wake up feeling like absolute crap, but that I could actually survive for longer after a short 'waking up' period of staring at a wall and shivering. Ah, good times....

So yeah, anecdotally, power naps seemed to help me quite a lot. I also found that if I had to stay up, it was far harder on me than if I chose to stay up. Nightshifts were horrible - I had a knack of closing my eyes so no-one noticed, but then waking up shouting "Gah!" and making everyone, including myself, jump.

Not a massive amount of work has been done on power naps, AFAIK. I found this study, which I haven't read yet, but which looked into prevalence and effect of power napping, which perhaps you might find interesting: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDQ/is_2_27/ai_81390108

A former lecturer of mine, Bob Hockey (then at the University of Hull), did some work on the effects of sleep deprivation for the European Space Agency. I only have my recollection of his lecture and a short conversation with him, and at the moment I can't seem to find a reference, but he summed his findings up, in a very tiny TARDIS-like nutshell, as indicating that ability to perform complex tasks was largely unaffected by sleep deprivation, but that the ability to cope with an added stressor was markedly affected: so for instance, sleep-deprived subjects could still operate a complex control panel with similar efficiency to rested ones, but as soon as a simulated stressor was introduced (e.g. an alarm going off, and an extra thing to think about), everything went downhill for the people who had had no sleep.

Sleep disruption is an important aspect of depression, one of those vicious circles: people who are depressed often have disrupted sleep, but disrupted sleep can make your mood suffer... etc.
 
That was a lovely post, nucular.

Ah, back in the day my friend and I would have to work long hours in the film-scoring biz. This meant working 12-hour days for about a week, falling behind on the project, and ending up with a 1-3 day marathon. Then binging on food and other stupid pleasures. No drugs except caffeine and fear. If you didn't get the project done on time, you would never work for those people again.

This pattern went on for 10 years. Not good for the nerves!

My all-time record was around 70 hours.

When I went 70 hours, I:

1) began to think I could see 360 degrees, i.e. behind my back.
2) jumped out of my car and started screaming at someone who was tailgaiting me, instead of simply pulling over.
3) burst into tears at the sight of a rose bush. So, so beautiful!
4) was incapable of writing anything decent by the end.

I like nucular's point about being able to function in situations without distraction, and becoming very, very brittle around little things going wrong. But my main experience is that you need sleep to be creative. I have one good idea per day, after a good night's sleep.
 
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Ceritus, I'd say you ought to get on a steady schedule, i.e., sleeping from 9a.m. to 4 p.m., seven days a week.

Other than that, you do need sleep in about 90 minute chunks. It takes that long for a whole sleep cycle of all the various 'brain wave's'- alpha, beta, rem, etc. I notice that if I wake during the night, it's in multiples of about 1:45. So I don't go back to bed unless I've got that much time. Naps are different, 15 minutes helps with daytime grogginess.
 
A factor which is starting to be seen as much more important than before is when you sleep. Some people naturally wake up at 6AM while others wake up at 11AM. There is more evidence being gathered that suggests forcing your body to sleep at the wrong time has serious effects, no matter how long you sleep for. I defintately agree with this (anecdoteally of course), since if I get up before 10 or 11 I will feel tired for the rest of the day, whereas if I get up later I can carry on until silly times in the morning. http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125672.000-teenagers-lost-in-time.html

Also, altering your sleep pattern can cause problems. It seems that shift workers who regularly change their sleeping hours are significantly less healthy than people who work constant hours. Although I must admit I'm a little skeptical about this and have to wonder how much of this could be due to people pulling sickies because they feel tired or want to socialise.
 
A long time ago I heard a mention that we needed about 4 hours a night. Having to do with the time it takes for rem sleep to occur. That seems about right to me. I used to sleep very well. I could lay down and be asleep in 1 or 2 minutes. I needed only about 4.5 hours to be completely normal (as normal as I could be). Rarely I could sleep longer but would end up feeling tired if I did. Now I sleep about 5 to 6 hours and if I get less than 5 hours I will need to nap at noon or be tired.
 
After 20 years of EMS and shift work I have no sleep pattern. I still sleep more restfully during the day i.e. I find naps more restorative then a 'full' night sleep.

My personal record stands at 96 hours. Because I was in a controlled enviroment I don't recall any hallucinatory phase. After 72 hours I was numb and felt fine. It's only as I got older that I began to notice a decline in my ability to to preform difficult tasks on less then 2 hours of sleep.

That is now my standard, 2 hours out of 24 and I can function at about 95% capacity.




BTW, having been in your situation, try sleeping in 2-4 hour naps throughout a 24-48 hour cycle and caffiene stops working after a certain point.



Boo
 
Dogdoctor said:
A long time ago I heard a mention that we needed about 4 hours a night. Having to do with the time it takes for rem sleep to occur. That seems about right to me. I used to sleep very well. I could lay down and be asleep in 1 or 2 minutes. I needed only about 4.5 hours to be completely normal (as normal as I could be). Rarely I could sleep longer but would end up feeling tired if I did. Now I sleep about 5 to 6 hours and if I get less than 5 hours I will need to nap at noon or be tired.
Click to expand...

In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).
 
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Ceritus said:
I get anywhere between 2 hours and 12hours of sleep a night. I tend to sleep about 4 hours a night on weekdays and 12hours on weekends but when I start off on monday at 12:01 am when I work mids, I dont get any sleep that day. Sometimes I get up right before work then work my shift than am unable to sleep until I finish my 2nd shift the following day.
Click to expand...
That would indicate a fairly disturbed sleep pattern. But individuals do vary in thier need for sleep.
One of the keys to healthy sleep is to try to wake at the same time every day, allegedly that is when the circadian clock is set. You also want to avoid stimulants late in your 'day'. They will mess with your sleep cycle.
Trying to maintain a 'regular schedule' on your days off can confuse the body.

But each individual is very different, i can function on five hours of sleep, and can function with irregular chunks of sleep, as long as I get eight hours in a twenty four hour periof I can function, my minimum being five. Some people have to go to bed at the same time very night and wake at the same time very day.
Before shift work which was about.... 6 years ago I think. I was much younger then being a strapping 18 yr-old I never felt fatigued. I would sleep on average of 5 hours a night sometimes less but rarely ever more.
Click to expand...
that is a little on the low ened, the average is between 7-9 hours. But there is a lot of individual variation.
I have even stayed up for entire 5 day periods just to sleep the entire weekend through only getting up to drink water and use the bathroom.
Click to expand...
That is not healthy, were you using stimulants? Was it a persistant pattern without stimulants? That kind of sleep disturbance can be part of a mood disorder.
I have noticed one thing though, when my sleep became inconsistant I began to show signs of depression, but that could be attributed to military life or numerous other things.
Click to expand...
I think disturbed sleep is the eventual driving force behind depression.
Ironically I believe it was the lack of sleep that awakened me to critical thought. I honestly don't believe I knew how to learn or deduce problems until I felt fatigued.
Click to expand...

Cool, I can't think very well when I am tired, so I tend to train my patterns to carry through when I am tired. I recently left crazy call shift work. Yay!
 
SteveGrenard said:
In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).
Click to expand...

Sleep labs rock!

I am very happy to have my severe sleep apnea treated.
 
SteveGrenard said:
In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).
Click to expand...

It wasn't the length of time to reach rem but to have enough rem and enough other stages of sleep. However looking around on the internet, it sounds like some people only need 3 hours of sleep.
What is a MVA?
 
MVA=Motor Vehicle Accident(s)

People who say they can sleep only 3 or 4 hrs out of 24 and can function perfectly are usually overrating their ability to do so. Hand-eye coordination tests and
driving simulators as well as a standard procedure done in the sleep lab known as the
Maintenance of Wakefulness Testing (MWT) indicates this.
 
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Dancing David said:
Sleep labs rock!

I am very happy to have my severe sleep apnea treated.
Click to expand...

Sleep apnea is one of the most common things tested in the lab and is one of the most common causes of sleeplessness. It should be ruled out before getting drug treatment for insomnia.
 
Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?
After my wife's grandmother died, she experienced a weird visitation from her grandmother just after she went to bed and fell asleep.
"Thatsa okay, Elena."she said in her Sicilian accent.
Freaked her out.
Years later, Dr, Robert Baker addressed the NY Area Skeptics and discussed alll these these phenonema and she said, "*****! And I thought I was crazy!'
 
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