Skyline Mall - Hanjour's VFR Reference?

[BCR]

While plotting the RO2 and radar data, I noted that the loop begins and ends with the Skyline Mall in Falls Church, VA. It is known from FBI records that Hani Hanjour and friends moved to Falls Church after leaving Phoenix. This is just an observation, but it looks like Hanjour used this Mall as a VFR reference. This would tend to rule out the "cruise missile guidance" scenario if Hanjour was actually using VFR references for his final approach to the Pentagon.

It also indicates to me some significant pre-flight planning on Hanjour's part.

 

[lapman]

That would not be a surprise since he was a pilot. The only thing he got wrong was his rate of descent. The concept that the twoofers fail to grasp is that a professional pilot/ cruise missile course programmer/remote control pilot would have never made the descending turn.

 

[beachnut]

If you have DCA tuned into the VOR, you have an arrow pointing to the Pentagon area and the distance in the DME. These are skills a 35-hour private pilot would have, or could have, or should have. Depends on your standards.

35 hour Private Pilots can use VOR/DME to precisely navigate to any place in the USA with coverage, and find a small house or appropriate sized object with precision. I would have used GPS as a back up on 9/11.

If he had skills in flying a heavy jet he could have used some last-flight neat ways to descend fast and scary, but safe.

Any VFR refs would be great, but I am not sure if he had those skills in his first high altitude jet sortie. Go fly and be responsible for finding the airport, a strange field airport. Not hard, but interesting as new pilot. Hani's field was the Pentagon, lucky for Hani it was not 40 feet wide like the runway he was having problems renting a plane. He may of missed a 40 foot target.

 

[JamesB]

But David Ray Griffin said he would have had to be an ace pilot to do that!

 

[PhantomWolf]

These are skills a 35-hour private pilot would have, or could have, or should have. Depends on your standards.

...

If he had skills in flying a heavy jet he could have used some last-flight neat ways to descend fast and scary, but safe.

Hani wasn't a 35 hour private pilot. He had his FAA Comerical Licence, and had so since 1998. He also had done double digit hours in jet simulator training.

Hani's field was the Pentagon, lucky for Hani it was not 40 feet wide like the runway he was having problems renting a plane. He may of missed a 40 foot target.

I don't think he had trouble hitting the runway, it was his language skills and a heavy landing that worried them.

 

[Darth Rotor]

WTF?

The Pentagon is a huge, very easy to spot terrain feature. It is far easier to discern visually than a shopping mall, thanks to its location and shape.

Why would Hanjour need a visual checkpoint for finding it?

On a VFR day, I don't need an intermediate checkpoint to find a runway.

If what you suggest is that he was using the mall as an IP for an attack run, OK, maybe.

Malls look different from the air than on the ground.

This would tend to rule out the "cruise missile guidance" scenario if Hanjour was actually using VFR references for his final approach to the Pentagon. It also indicates to me some significant pre-flight planning on Hanjour's part.

"Actually using VFR references"

He was flying in VMC, of course he was using VFR references.

Preflight planning? No kidding. Your plan is to fly a plane into a building. You do some planning so you pull it off.

Pro Tip: there isn't an instrument approach to the side of the Pentagon. You can only fly into it with any assurance using visual references if you are using the tools Hanjour had to hand: an airplane and his limited flying experience, which seems to have been enough for the job, eh?

Wilbur Wept.

 

[Reheat]

The Pentagon is a huge, very easy to spot terrain feature. It is far easier to discern visually than a shopping mall, thanks to its location and shape.

I'd guess the shopping mall coinciding with a turn point was just coincidence. The Potomac and the Pentagon should have been visible from over 100 miles out. However, as DR says a shopping mall is not very discernible in an urban landscape.

However, the sun would have been straight ahead which probably caused a problem just as it did with the C-130 pilots. Consequently, I'd say that he could not actually see the Pentagon from a distance, but was simply following the VOR indicator until such time as he did see the building. Bear in mind also, that he had not done very many similar descents at that speed and misjudged it requiring the 360 degree turn to lose altitude.

Were they sophisticated enough to use an IP reference for the descent? Possibly, but I doubt it. He had DME from DCA, so if they had planned appropriately he could have used that to enable a straight ahead descent rather than having to do that 360 degree turn.

I think he just picked up the Pentagon late, visually, because of the sun and just conservatively elected to do a descending turn which he had done hundreds of times previously and it worked quite well to accomplish his objective.

ETA: More than Wilbur wept that day....

 

[Darth Rotor]

I think he just picked up the Pentagon late, visually, because of the sun and just conservatively elected to do a descending turn which he had done hundreds of times previously and it worked quite well to accomplish his objective.

The evidence of the ground track of AA77 supports that theory very well. Of course, we went over this two years ago, when that track info came out.

What the hell do we know, Reheat, knowing how to fly and target and such?

DR

 

[BCR]

What the hell do we know, Reheat, knowing how to fly and target and such?

A whole lot more than I do. I took enough lessons in a Cessna 152 and a Piper Cub that I was able to do my solo in the mid-1970's over Frankfort, KY (uncontrolled air field). That means I don't know squat about it, hence that is why I am here running this stuff by you guys.

 

[Alareth]

If it's been said before I've missed it so forgive me.

Do we know for sure that the Pentagon was the primary target and not a secondary target of opportunity?

 

[Reheat]

If it's been said before I've missed it so forgive me.

Do we know for sure that the Pentagon was the primary target and not a secondary target of opportunity?

Ahem, NO! Maybe they ought to ask KSM. I'm sure he would tell the truth!

 

[BCR]

Okay, I think you guys are looking at this from a military aviation point-of-view. I am looking at it from a know-nothing limited VFR point-of-view. I agree Hanjour followed the DCA VOR in, but I have updated the image with where Hanjour lived and visited in the area (purple markers).

It is interesting to me that although he was living in MD at the time, on the 8/24/2001 that he had lunch at the Mount of Olives right down the road from the Mall. The Mall area is composed of a group of very tall residential and business buildings and is a very central feature. Hanjour even used an ATM at the Mall on 5/4/2001. Salem Al-Hazmi (one of his muscle guys) used an address of 3355 Row Street in Falls Church on 9/7/2001, very close to Hanjour's old address of 3159 Row Street of 3/30/2001.

The Sun was not due East (more southeast) and would not have been a targeting factor since the plane was traveling due East before the turn. From a purely amateur way of looking at things, it looks to me like he flew IFR back to an area familiar to him, then acquired a VFR reference point, turned to lose altitude and align with his VFR reference to make a final approach. I find it hard to believe that he flew over an area so familiar to him, not once, but twice by accident. But then again, you guys know more about flying than I do.

 

[MikeW]

The 9/11 Commission told us that:

FBI report, "Summary of Penttbom Investigation," Feb. 29, 2004, pp. 52*57. Hanjour successfully conducted a challenging certification flight supervised by an instructor at Congressional Air Charters of Gaithersburg, Maryland, landing at a small airport with a difficult approach.The instructor thought Hanjour may have had training from a military pilot because he used a terrain recognition system for navigation. Eddie Shalev interview (Apr.9, 2004).
9/11 Commission Report, Chapter 7, Footnote 70

"used a terrain recognition system for navigation" - sounds like the same kind of thing that 911files is suggesting here.

 

[Reheat]

"used a terrain recognition system for navigation" - sounds like the same kind of thing that 911files is suggesting here.

I'm not sure what is meant by a "terrain recognition system for navigation".

All pilots are taught map reading type navigation skills, so military pilots are not necessarily unique in this regard. Some, such as helicopter pilots, Forward Air Controllers, Air-to-Ground type fighter pilots and such would have more proficiency with terrain and contour type map reading, but others would be similar to Airline Pilots using mostly instruments for navigation. "Little airplane" types use mostly VFR type navigation at lower altitudes and would be trained for that, so I'm not sure what the instructor means by this statement. Hanjour would have been reasonably proficient no matter how he was trained, civilian or military.

As both Darth Rotor and I have pointed out, a shopping mall in an urban area is not that discernible from a manufacturing plant or a concentration of warehouses and such. Using the highway system in conjunction with landmarks would be more reliable method.

The proper way to have done Hani's job would have been to descend straight in without the turn just as they did in New York. However, that would have required proper descent planning. For that reason alone I think this reference point as an Initial Point (IP) such as a Fighter Pilot would plan for is a stretch. I just think we're making a big deal out of this for dubious reasons.

I still think the sun was a factor for visibility. Listen to Gopher's (C-130) statements that he could not discern exactly where AA77 crashed. He was heading 080 degrees the same approximate heading used by AA77 yet he had difficulty determining exactly where the aircraft hit. We know there was no fog/smog, so there is no other reasonable explanation for why he couldn't see based on his altitude and distance from the impact point.

 

[bje]

Okay, I think you guys are looking at this from a military aviation point-of-view. I am looking at it from a know-nothing limited VFR point-of-view. I agree Hanjour followed the DCA VOR in, but I have updated the image with where Hanjour lived and visited in the area (purple markers).

I agree.

I have always believed that the entire operation of using four planes on 9/11 was to increase the odds that at least one would succeed in hitting its target.

For that reason, I have always suspected that the hijackers learned enough about visual reference points on the ground to increase the odds of getting to their targets should any navigational aids -- for whatever reason -- not be available to them. At least for AA11 and UA175, it would have been easy to get to NYC without even a compass.

But it would have required exceptionally good VFR conditions which is exactly what the conditions were over the entire Northeast, NYC, and DC on 9/11.

For AA11 and UA175, the Connecticut and northern Long Island shores are easily visible from the left side of flights over central Massachusetts at the respective altitudes of 29,000 ft and 23,000 feet. You can see Long Island Sound narrow in the distance providing an easy directional reference to NYC.

Hijackers for both AA11 and UA175 had chosen their own seating to facilitate the hijacking. They included window seats on the left side of each aircraft:

AA11: http://www.1918redsox.com/images/aa11.gif

UA175: http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/exhibit/ua175.png

Once hijacked, UA 175's flight path allowed those hijackers to have constant visual reference to NYC from the cockpit. AA11 flew to the northeast and had a constant view of the Hudson River. It turned south after crossing the Hudson and essentially followed it all the way into NYC.

[FONT=&quot]http://www.avweb.com/other/911flightexplorer.html[/FONT]

Whether this was true for AA77 and UA93 I cannot say.

 

[lapman]

Looks like the mall is a prominent terrain feature. That would be easy to spot and follow during the last part of the turn. I doubt that he thought, "Golly-gosh darn it, I'm too high. Hey look, there's the Skyline Mall. I'll use that as a reference to make my turn." It was probably more like, " it! I'm way to high! I've got to lose altitude and those tall buildings will make a great reference point for me to make a descending turn."

 

[celestrin]

Yup, had those ideas years ago when the Citizen In Treefort still seemed to be worth spending my time on.
http://www.randi.org/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2121297&postcount=1211

Darth and Reheat probably don't realize that the Skyline Mall is a part of a larger building complex in Bailey's Crossing, comprised of One Skyline Tower, a 365ft tall building (4th tallest in DC/Arlington area), and a bunch of other tall buildings in excess of 20 stories high. Check the fullsize image in the first link to see how they stick out from the surrounding area. That being said, I don't have any flying experience either, so this is just pure speculation, but I do think that Hanjour and his copilot (don't remember his name, but there was another hijacker on AA77 who had some limited pilot training) did use the Skyline for navigation.

I even suspected that the VFR might be responsible for that "S" manuever they did to the south of Dulles, just as they'd switched off the autopilot for the last time and started the initial descent from 8100 to 6900ft. You see, the plane turned towards the Tysons Corner for a minute or two. Tysons Corner also has some highrises and has a similar relative position to one of the bends in the Potomac as the Skyline does. But, as said, this is mere speculation on my part...

 

[beachnut]

In a big jet, you can't see under the nose. So you would not see the mall. The normal glide path for a Boeing Jet is 3 degrees.

Each pilot has different techniques he uses besides procedures and techniques he was taught. I never used other references; I used the place I was going for. I was more interested in identifying where I was going and not making an earlier mistake of being lost from misidentifying a ground reference I was not going to in the first place.

The terrorist pilots were not low time private pilots and they should have had skill to follow a VOR arrow to DCA with DME (actual mileage to the airport next to the Pentagon). Getting a glimpse of the Pentagon from 7,000 feet where they started to turn was where Hani got the clue bird he was too high and his present decent gradient was not hacking it; he had to do the turn to loose altitude, he is not as dumb as Balsamo who says he would nose over and just hit the Pentagon! Balsamo can't hit the side of building he repeats this claim in his pathetic videos.

Hani had to do a turn to be low enough to make a pass at the Pentagon, doubt he saw the Mall under the nose, and flying is completely different than being on the ground and using ground references. That being said, some pilots (who knows why) can't figure out the VOR arrow and the DME junk and the instructors (some instructors) teach these students the ground reference method of flying usually in the air! Guess you could line up stuff for a plane to use the Mall, but the Pentagon is really a big target.

 

[lapman]

In a big jet, you can't see under the nose. So you would not see the mall. The normal glide path for a Boeing Jet is 3 degrees.

Each pilot has different techniques he uses besides procedures and techniques he was taught. I never used other references; I used the place I was going for. I was more interested in identifying where I was going and not making an earlier mistake of being lost from misidentifying a ground reference I was not going to in the first place.

The terrorist pilots were not low time private pilots and they should have had skill to follow a VOR arrow to DCA with DME (actual mileage to the airport next to the Pentagon). Getting a glimpse of the Pentagon from 7,000 feet where they started to turn was where Hani got the clue bird he was too high and his present decent gradient was not hacking it; he had to do the turn to loose altitude, he is not as dumb as Balsamo who says he would nose over and just hit the Pentagon! Balsamo can't hit the side of building he repeats this claim in his pathetic videos.

Hani had to do a turn to be low enough to make a pass at the Pentagon, doubt he saw the Mall under the nose, and flying is completely different than being on the ground and using ground references. That being said, some pilots (who knows why) can't figure out the VOR arrow and the DME junk and the instructors (some instructors) teach these students the ground reference method of flying usually in the air! Guess you could line up stuff for a plane to use the Mall, but the Pentagon is really a big target.

Most GA aircraft do not have DME, so it isn't taught. Instead, we are taught pilotage. The mall would have been more visible than the Pentagon due to it's tall buildings. It was a great place to perform the turn due to it's distance from the Pentagon. It would have been easy to keep the mall in his sights during the last part of the turn. So, it's not surprising that the turn started and ended at the mall.

 

[Reheat]

So, some of you guys think that big turn was pre-planned?

I don't at all. I think he just got caught with a poorly planned descent rate, finally noticed it and decided to do the turn with which he was familiar rather than dive into the building (using a maneuver with which he was not familiar).

So, DME is not taught to light aircraft folks? How much instruction is needed to look at a window and read a number?

Of course, pilotage skills are and should be taught to beginning pilots as that is not as simple to learn as looking at a window and reading a number...

Perhaps they did plan on Hani using pilotage to find the Pentagon. If they did, it was pretty dumb and I don't think they were dumb. They had DCA turned in, so the information was there. I just think he was not accustomed to the speed and simply misjudged the descent rate requiring what I think was an unplanned turn.

Good discussion.... I'm glad we can do it without yelling at one another and calling each other vulgar names.....