• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Sexist game do not generate sexism in user

Aepervius

Non credunt, semper verificare
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
Messages
14,571
Location
Sigil, the city of doors
I don't think that particular article was mentioned here, but the contention is by some groups (not backed by data), that sexism in video game make people go sexist in real life (Mrs Sarkeesan conteded so in one video about video trope and female).

This is on the same level as "video game cause violence" Thompson level.

And it seems there are studies now showing actually, no, there is not such an effect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25844719?dopt=Abstract

Enlisting a 3 year longitudinal design, the present study assessed the relationship between video game use and sexist attitudes, using data from a representative sample of German players aged 14 and older (N=824). Controlling for age and education, it was found that sexist attitudes--measured with a brief scale assessing beliefs about gender roles in society--were not related to the amount of daily video game use or preference for specific genres for both female and male players.

I am all for diversity , reversing role and having the prince in distress, this makes for more stories, and open new horizons.

But at least it seem the "but it makes gamer sexist" can be put to sleep.


Edited by Loss Leader: 
"Sexiam" in thread title changed to "Sexist" because I believe it's what the OP meant to write.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've never seen anyone say it makes people sexist. I've seen them say it reveals that they already were.
 
I've never seen anyone say it makes people sexist. I've seen them say it reveals that they already were.

Actualy it was was said in one Sarkeesan video. I don't recall which, and I have no lust to go through all of them again.

But let us take your viewpoint that it reflect the person's taste. Even that I would contend would fall down under the same problem as mentioned in the first post : you would expect that the same would follow for violence and other themes. And it does not, as people doing violent crime (among other teenager) there was no correlation found with violent video game usage (there are a few study about reckless behavior like fast driving and drinking alcohol but they are not very conclusive like the 2012 dartmouth study). Until there is a correlation proven and shown, then the claim is in the camp of those contending such link exists and so far null evidence has been provided. And the same hold between your contention of sexism and video game usage : there is no correlation study. Until one is provided , it is just a claim.
 
The results here leave an important question unanswered. If the videos don't work, what's the best way to induce sexism in our young?

I trust the scholarly investigations continue? (Hopefully by men this time!)
 
I call ******** on this. I know first hand that video games cause rampant sexism. Speaking personally, for every alien I kill in Halo, my urge to objectify women grows stronger and stronger.
 
At a fundamental level, the brain doesn't actually know the difference between a physical world observation and a 'mediated input.' There are studies where physiological responses are observed in subjects being show images, having sounds played in headphones, blindfolding them and wafting scents under their noses, etc.

Games are very often designed with operant conditioning (rewards and punishments).

We learn by observation and experience.

I don't really know if a study can properly control for the totally different life experiences we all have outside of time spent playing that might mitigate (or compound) the influence of the gaming. Plus it varies from game to game. Some have hypersexualized characters, some don't. Some games feature women throwing themselves at the perspective character with a few suggestive pick-up lines, some don't.
 
But at least it seem the "but it makes gamer sexist" can be put to sleep.
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

Regardless, a competitive, male-dominated environment is a perfect outlet for sexist behaviours, especially language. Online combat-oriented games such as CoD are an environment where such behaviour is at least tolerated.

Or so I'm told. Myself, I never game online so I don't know for sure. I'm pretty sure I'd be called gay within minutes if I did.
 
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

Regardless, a competitive, male-dominated environment is a perfect outlet for sexist behaviours, especially language. Online combat-oriented games such as CoD are an environment where such behaviour is at least tolerated.

Or so I'm told. Myself, I never game online so I don't know for sure. I'm pretty sure I'd be called gay within minutes if I did.

The pre-1970s was a perfect environment for sexist behaviour. The 2010s not so much. People are more sensitive to sexism of course, particularly language, because overt sexist actions are not as common these days.
 
The pre-1970s was a perfect environment for sexist behaviour. The 2010s not so much. People are more sensitive to sexism of course, particularly language, because overt sexist actions are not as common these days.
True, but still, I hear things about what the online games are like.

I'd be pretty happy to be proved wrong.
 
True, but still, I hear things about what the online games are like.

I'd be pretty happy to be proved wrong.

There was a game ad I scrolled by the other day on FaceWaste with a typical 'sex sells' theme, so I indulged my Jerry Springer curiosity and popped open the comments. Lots of rationalizations being offered about why the zoom in on the female character's chest (which then grew to enormous proportions...and don't get me started on the, uh, interesting physics of movement).

"They are just showing how detailed the character customization is!"

So I shot back, "Okay, so is there a crotch bulge slider, too? Will it dance and flop around in an aesthetically pleasing manner?"

*crickets*
 
There was a game ad I scrolled by the other day on FaceWaste with a typical 'sex sells' theme, so I indulged my Jerry Springer curiosity and popped open the comments. Lots of rationalizations being offered about why the zoom in on the female character's chest (which then grew to enormous proportions...and don't get me started on the, uh, interesting physics of movement).

"They are just showing how detailed the character customization is!"

So I shot back, "Okay, so is there a crotch bulge slider, too? Will it dance and flop around in an aesthetically pleasing manner?"

*crickets*

I'd play a game with a crotch bulge slider. They should make that a feature in every customize-able avatar game! Codpieces that'd make Henry VIII jealous.
 
Just for reference...

6 Ridiculous Excuses Game Designers Gave For Sexist Costumes

It is arguable whether the sexism in the design is driving the sexism of the consumers, or the other way around. But there it is.

ETA: Of particular interest are the final couple of paragraphs:

There's nothing wrong with sexiness. There's everything wrong with sexism. Those are different things! And a huge part of sexism is pretending that the one-sided, one-flavor, cis straight guy idea of sexiness is some kind of neutral normal. "Totally blatantly about staring at simulated tits" is absolutely fine if you're honest about it. In fact, that's the entire design document for Dead Or Alive Extreme 3. It's only a pity there isn't an equivalent game about burly lumberjacks and Greek statues of ballet dancers struggling on an island based on lumberjacking and working in a body oil factory. Yet. But there will be, and it will make money.

If developers would just admit they like looking at naked bodies, they might realize other people do too. Then add a few more options. And then they'd have even more fans, and everyone would be enjoying the sexiness together. Instead of insisting that straight male sexual preference is a fundamental force of the virtual world transmitted exclusively by hard-ons.
 
Last edited:
I will never get tired of sharing this one:



As a former MMO addict, I can attest to having heard these rationalizations delivered on countless occasions.
 
There was a game ad I scrolled by the other day on FaceWaste with a typical 'sex sells' theme, so I indulged my Jerry Springer curiosity and popped open the comments. Lots of rationalizations being offered about why the zoom in on the female character's chest (which then grew to enormous proportions...and don't get me started on the, uh, interesting physics of movement).

"They are just showing how detailed the character customization is!"

So I shot back, "Okay, so is there a crotch bulge slider, too? Will it dance and flop around in an aesthetically pleasing manner?"

*crickets*

You have not heard of age of conan : exile, right ? Because it just did that. And in spite of the game being not very good borderline bad, it is jumping high the chart of crotch bulger. and floppy dick.

So GIVEN the option, they just do what you said. Which partially belies that this is a problem.

And again a lot here are contending that game sexism generate gamer sexism. That study linked belies that too. In fact if game generated violence and sexism, study over years would show a trend toward more sexism and more violence. But it does not.

While there were studies showing immediate effect (like alcoholism and reckless driving) after gaming, none show long term effect.
 
I will never get tired of sharing this one:



As a former MMO addict, I can attest to having heard these rationalizations delivered on countless occasions.

I have seen countless time people saying that. But no proper study.

See the problem with the brain is we have bias. We have negative and positive bias , so when such comment come up we remember it. But we forget the 999's of comment which either do not find it good or don't speak about it at all.

That is why studies like the one in the first post are necessary to check what real effect there is, and no assumed effect.

Maybe it was due to me getting physically bullied (beat down) when I was a kid, but verbal harassment does not do me anything whatsoever, so I am biased. But : As for online game, nowadays in many sexist/racist/harassment is much less an issue as most have a "reporting harassment" which usually result in either checking logs and insta ban or similar process. Some go around that by removing even the possibility to communicate e.g. see hearthstone.

In my experience, unless you go to a chat/voice system external to the game, such harassment is nowadays far more rarer than it ever was.

There is still big progress to be done to stomp it for good , I will admit, but it is nowhere near the free-for-all-you-are-a-**** hayday of early online game where idiots could poison a game easily.
 
This study is two years old, and here's what the researchers who carried out the study themselves have to say about their study and what it shows:

A recent multi-year study of German gamers might cast doubt on the idea that sexist content in video games can affect sexist attitudes in gamers. But the researchers behind the study caution that their findings shouldn’t be oversimplified.

“There are often discrepancies between what a study actually found and how people interpret it,” the two lead researchers, Johannes Breuer and Rachel Kowert told me in an e-mail interview this week after I contacted them about their 824-person study which compared gamers’ and non-gamers’ responses to a trio of questions about women’s place in society over the course of two years.

“We found that the amount of overall video game use at time 1 was not predictive of sexist attitudes/beliefs about gender roles at time 2 (i.e., 2 years later) and that (sexist) beliefs about gender roles at time 1 were equally not predictive of video game use at time 2 (for sample of German players aged 14 and older).

“Some people seem to think that this is proof that sexism is not an issue in games and gaming culture, which is something that we neither found, nor say (nor examined, really) in our study.”

The researchers would go on to tell me that they think sexism in gaming is still a potential problem in terms of excluding female gamers, influencing thoughts about body image and other factors. They also suggested that people might overestimate the impact that games have on people while underestimating the impact that gamers may have on each other.

[...]

So what to make of this new study and how it fits into these arguments? I e-mailed Breuer and Kowert to get their take. This is what we discussed:

Stephen Totilo, Kotaku: What arguments would you say the study is debunking?

Rachel Kowert (Dept. of Communication, University of Munster) and Johannes Breuer (Dept of Psychology, University of Cologne): We would be careful in saying that the study debunks any arguments. It provides some evidence that there are no broad cultivation effects of games, meaning that video games alone do not make anyone (more) sexist (in terms of endorsing traditional gender roles; see also our comment about the quote above).

Totilo: What arguments is it not debunking?

Kowert and Breuer: Again, we would probably not say “debunk” here. However, we want to make clear that our study does not show that sexism is not an issue in/for games and gaming culture. There are many content analyses of popular games that show that female characters are underrepresented or presented in an overly sexualized manner and there is also ample evidence that many players, particularly female, have experienced sexism in their interactions with other players.

Totilo: What impact do you think sexism in games actually has on gamers?

Kowert and Breuer: At the very least, we would say that it can be off-putting to many players (especially female players) and, therefore, can cause exclusion. While sexist game content can sometimes just be ignored or players can choose to turn to other games, personal experiences with sexual harassment or strong (sexist) insults by other players can have a serious negative impact on players, such as emotional distress. Over time, it can also drive players away from certain games or gaming altogether.

Totilo: Maybe even more fundamentally, what actually do you even consider to be examples of sexism in games?

Kowert and Breuer: As we said before, there are two main levels on which sexism can happen: in the content of a game (e.g., hypersexualized representations of female characters, such as the infamous “jiggle physics” in Ninja Gaiden) and in the interactions with other players. The latter can be expressed in various ways, such as exclusion, active discrimination, and/or active harassment (such as those documented on the aforementioned websites; e.g., Fat, Ugly, & Slutty)

Totilo: What do you make of people who are comparing both the arguments and studies regarding the impact of video game violence on gamers to research about the depiction of women in video games on gamers? Are they the same thing? Fundamentally different?

Kowert and Breuer: We would say that there are parallels here: In both cases, people seem to overestimate the effects of video game content. There are other, much more influential factors that impact aggression and sexism - most notably, family and peer influences.

We would also say that for any kind of media effects research (e.g., sexism, violence/aggression, etc) we should be starting to focus on the interactions between players rather than the content of the games themselves. That is something that has already begun for research on aggression with studies, e.g., looking at differences between cooperative and competitive play (there is a really good article by ICA Game Studies Interest Group Chair James D. Ivory (Virginia Tech) about the need to focus more on interactions between players).

Totilo: Do you plan to do more research on this topic? And, if so, what are you planning?

Kowert and Breuer: This article came out of a larger panel study on the uses and effects of digital games in Germany, which ended in December 2014. Since then, the members of the team have moved on to new projects and jobs. As such, there is not much more that can be done in terms of this particular dataset and sample. Although, we have composed a theoretical article discussing the potential cyclical nature of sexism and exclusion in video games content and culture, which should be published in an edited volume later this year/early next year.

We are also currently running a somewhat related project - a cross-cultural experimental study with partners from the US, Germany, and the Netherlands, assessing players’ evaluation of “problematic” content in games (namely, violent and sexual content). The assumption here is that there are cultural differences in how violent and sexual content are perceived and evaluated and that personal moral views also play an important role in this process.
 
You have not heard of age of conan : exile, right ? Because it just did that. And in spite of the game being not very good borderline bad, it is jumping high the chart of crotch bulger. and floppy dick.

So GIVEN the option, they just do what you said. Which partially belies that this is a problem.

One example does not a trend make.

And again a lot here are contending that game sexism generate gamer sexism. That study linked belies that too. In fact if game generated violence and sexism, study over years would show a trend toward more sexism and more violence. But it does not.

While there were studies showing immediate effect (like alcoholism and reckless driving) after gaming, none show long term effect.

Unless you literally lock people away from society for 2 years and give one group Mario Kart and another group Leisure Suit Larry and then check for differences in attitudes, it's not really definitive.

Did this 'study' even have a control group at all? Were the selected participants completely new to gaming at the start of the study to establish a baseline or were they already gamers (how do you determine the delta if their habits didn't change?).

I'm not ruling one way or the other, I'm saying this is hardly conclusive (and A'isha drives that point home with her post, as well). My, admittedly anecdotal, experience has been there's a lot more juvenile misogynist behavior in game settings than what I see/hear in meatspace. That could also just as easily be explained by the anonymity factor and the real world behavior could actually be people suppressing their tendencies in public.

I wasn't even an FPS gamer, so I can't really speak to voice chat harassment in that setting. Though I can say that 'reporting' rarely ever got anything done. Maybe for overt assault/death threats, otherwise it was 'we suggest putting the user on ignore if it is negatively affecting your gaming experience' weaksauce boiler plate legal disclaimers. But my gaming was mostly subscription-based, so there's a revenue issue for the company to worry about.

I was big in MMOs and in roleplay communities, at that. Most of them I actually gender-bent since even those communities tended to be dominated by a more subtle dick-waving match of who's the most badass evil cut-throat uber-villain. I kept my cover (even out of character) for a long time since I saw what would happen if people were 'discovered' doing so. Attitudes (at least in RP communities) did soften on that over the years since there is, in fact, a huge disparity in men and women gaming and how else would you explain the seemingly equal proportions of (in character) males and females? That and voice chat makes it hard to keep up the illusion, heh. But from that perspective, whoa did I get a (virtual) education on some of the things women have to put up with.
 
Last edited:
Just for reference...

6 Ridiculous Excuses Game Designers Gave For Sexist Costumes

It is arguable whether the sexism in the design is driving the sexism of the consumers, or the other way around. But there it is.

ETA: Of particular interest are the final couple of paragraphs:

Good grief. Of the six, I have played Halo. Cortana is in no way a sex object. I am aware of metal gear though have no interest in it and the remaining 4 are obscure japanese hentai titles.

Hardly the claimed marauding hoard of misogynists, is it.
 
Actualy it was was said in one Sarkeesan video. I don't recall which, and I have no lust to go through all of them again.

...nearly every single claim about Anita Sarkeesian is a lie, a statement taken out of context, or a ridiculous exaggeration. As your thread is dependent on your claim that Sarkeesian said "sexism in video game make people go sexist in real life" then you either need to "go through them all again" to prove that she said this: or admit that perhaps your recollection may be faulty.
 

Back
Top Bottom