Sensing Murder NZ Investigation

[ynot]

I’m seriously considering conducting an independent investigation in to the claims made by Sensing Murder NZ, and all those directly involved with the show (psychics, investigators, crew, etc), to see if any evidence can be found that any of the claims are false. If I decide to do this, I’m prepared to invest a reasonable amount of my time and money in the endeavour. An initial action would be to create a website to invite people to contribute information. This would be able to be done with guaranteed confidentiality, so even employees that have signed confidentiality agreements may chose to contribute. I would appreciate any feedback on this.

Further to this, I’m also thinking of registering complaints with the Broadcasting Standards Authority and the Commerce Commission (Fair Trading Act), regarding the following two claims made by Sensing Murder . . .

The psychics have “no prior knowledge of the case” before the taping of the programme.

“the mediums use only their psychic ability to uncover details of the victim’s life and death”

Given murders and missing bodies are the stock and trade of professional psychics, and details of murder and missing persons cases are available to the public, I don‘t see how these claims can be credible.

Any thoughts?

 

[ynot]

Have just registered a complaint with the BSA.

 

[George 152]

Given murders and missing bodies are the stock and trade of professional psychics, and details of murder and missing persons cases are available to the public, I don‘t see how these claims can be credible.

Any thoughts? [/QUOTE]

The authors of this bit of nonsense (sensing Murder) appear to have fallen through one of our well known 'gaps'
Any chance that the Investigate magazine might look into the farce since they (and Truth) are the only investigative news media at the moment..
Good luck with your attempting to make the senseless see some sense

 

[ynot]

The psychics could be challenged to replicate their performance with an independently run test that is essentially the same as Sensing Murder one. I believe Kelvin Cruickshank lives in Auckland where there must be at least a few unsolved murders and/or lost bodies. Enough I would imagine to run a test that couldn’t be readily solved by a lucky guess. One of these cases would be secretly selected and recorded. Some personal item of the victim, that in no way identifies the victim or case (not a photo), would be given to the psychic, who then attempts to identify the case using only their special psychic abilities. I realise that no psychic would ever accept this challenge, but it could be used as a vehicle to demonstrate that their claims are most probably false.

 

[Ginarley]

I'd be very keen to help out with my time and any resources I have access to - a properly structured independent and transparent investigation would be an excellent idea (provided it doesn't turn into a smear campaign).

 

[ynot]

I'd be very keen to help out with my time and any resources I have access to - a properly structured independent and transparent investigation would be an excellent idea (provided it doesn't turn into a smear campaign).

Thanks Ginarley. Not sure if it would be better to go with the “SM Investigation” or the “SM Psychic Challenge” that I have briefly mentioned. The problem with the investigation is that a lot of time and money could be spent for no real result. The psychics could then claim that this offers proof that they are genuine. The more think of it, the more I like the challenge. It would be quicker and easier to set up and would put focus and pressure on the psychics. The challenge would only be offered to psychics who have participated in the NZ SM series. Any costs to the psychics would be reimbursed. If they failed they would get no further payment. If they succeed they would get a monetary cash prize. This would be actual money held in a trust account that would be verifiable so they couldn’t claim it didn’t exist (as they do with other prizes like Randi‘s). This “prize fund“ could be created by contributions from the general public. I imagine there would be at least a thousand sceptics that would contribute say $100 each to such a fund. The value of the prize would continue to grow with new contributions. The challenge would have an expiry date (1 year?), after which the money plus interest would be returned to the contributors. That any of the psychics would accept the challenge is very remote, and even if they did, that they could successfully complete the challenge is also remote. The money contributed would be quite safe. Would you be interested in supporting this concept with your time and resources? Also, would anyone else be interested?



ETA - I wouldn’t see this as being “my thing” and would be happy to accept input from anyone in the world, then go with consensus decisions. I’m a website designer so my contribution, at the very least, would be the creation and running of a website including all associated costs.

 

[ynot]

I would like to design the site as if it could have been done by a “believer” and this is a quick sample of the tone I think it should have . . .

“Many sceptics have been accusing psychics that appear on the popular New Zealand Sensing Murder program of indulging in fraudulent practices. And that these psychics have no special abilities, and are unable to communicate with the dead. SM Psychic Invitation offers these psychics an opportunity to clearly prove their abilities, and thereby silence these sceptical detractors. The psychics will be reimbursed for any relevant expenses they incur, and when they have successfully proven their abilities, they will be rewarded with a cash prize that they can keep for themself, or donate to any charity of their choice.”

I think SM Psychic Invitation is better than Challenge. More user-friendly to invite than challenge.

Not much response so far. Is it just a slow day, or am I being an idiot with this? Please tell me if I am.

 

[ynot]

The authors of this bit of nonsense (sensing Murder) appear to have fallen through one of our well known 'gaps'
Any chance that the Investigate magazine might look into the farce since they (and Truth) are the only investigative news media at the moment..
Good luck with your attempting to make the senseless see some sense

Thanks

 

[Ginarley]

Thanks Ginarley. Not sure if it would be better to go with the “SM Investigation” or the “SM Psychic Challenge” that I have briefly mentioned. The problem with the investigation is that a lot of time and money could be spent for no real result. The psychics could then claim that this offers proof that they are genuine. The more think of it, the more I like the challenge. It would be quicker and easier to set up and would put focus and pressure on the psychics. The challenge would only be offered to psychics who have participated in the NZ SM series. Any costs to the psychics would be reimbursed. If they failed they would get no further payment. If they succeed they would get a monetary cash prize. This would be actual money held in a trust account that would be verifiable so they couldn’t claim it didn’t exist (as they do with other prizes like Randi‘s). This “prize fund“ could be created by contributions from the general public. I imagine there would be at least a thousand sceptics that would contribute say $100 each to such a fund. The value of the prize would continue to grow with new contributions. The challenge would have an expiry date (1 year?), after which the money plus interest would be returned to the contributors. That any of the psychics would accept the challenge is very remote, and even if they did, that they could successfully complete the challenge is also remote. The money contributed would be quite safe. Would you be interested in supporting this concept with your time and resources? Also, would anyone else be interested?

Some thoughts.

Firstly I don't think a money based test is going to help - we've already seen on the SM forum and from The Atheist's $2MDC that money doesn't bother these psychics (well easy money - $200 a pop for readings they are happy to take lol).

Secondly as far as tests are concerned, we have to decide whether we are after the psychic or the show. My instinct is that pursuing the psychics directly will get us nowhere, and we are just likely to come across as just another skeptical voice and be ignored..

However there is potentially progress to be made with the show. I would like to do an in depth investigation where Ninox opened up items like contracts, emails, exact filming schedules, all the edited material and so forth. Ninox have already extended an invitation to me to go visit them in Wellington and this could form part of that. Interviews with the psychics in the context of the show could be revealing if taken independently of each other. Tracking down information like where the psychics were before filming, opportunities and openings where they could have found the information, etc. I am probably thinking waaaaay to ambitiously but it's a start Identifying issues such as those on the silly beliefs site where editing clearly occurred etc is important. Ultimately we have to show that the show is far from as watertight as it claims it was with it's conditions. Then we either get Ninox on side as they see the psychics could have tricked them or we expose them as cheats. Either result is useful, and if we fail, because we haven't directly targeted the psychics we have a little shelter.

ETA - I wouldn’t see this as being “my thing” and would be happy to accept input from anyone in the world, then go with consensus decisions. I’m a website designer so my contribution, at the very least, would be the creation and running of a website including all associated costs.

That would be useful - although I haven't really thought about the publicity side of things. Making a site available where families who were involved could opt into the investigation would probably be very useful.

I would like to design the site as if it could have been done by a “believer” and this is a quick sample of the tone I think it should have . . .

“Many sceptics have been accusing psychics that appear on the popular New Zealand Sensing Murder program of indulging in fraudulent practices. And that these psychics have no special abilities, and are unable to communicate with the dead. SM Psychic Invitation offers these psychics an opportunity to clearly prove their abilities, and thereby silence these sceptical detractors. The psychics will be reimbursed for any relevant expenses they incur, and when they have successfully proven their abilities, they will be rewarded with a cash prize that they can keep for themself, or donate to any charity of their choice.”

I think SM Psychic Invitation is better than Challenge. More user-friendly to invite than challenge.
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I think there is a lot to be said for being open and transparent. There is no way these guys are going to be tricked into thinking we are on their side but if we are honest about how we are going to approach the issue then we might just get more out of them. I do think it is important not to go the other way either and approach it from a "these guys a cheats, lets expose them" direction either - keeping the language (and approach) entirely neutral is probably really important.

Those are just some initial thoughts off the top of my head, still digesting the whole idea however.

Cheers
Ian

 

[ynot]

Some thoughts.

Firstly I don't think a money based test is going to help - we've already seen on the SM forum and from The Atheist's $2MDC that money doesn't bother these psychics (well easy money - $200 a pop for readings they are happy to take lol).

Secondly as far as tests are concerned, we have to decide whether we are after the psychic or the show. My instinct is that pursuing the psychics directly will get us nowhere, and we are just likely to come across as just another skeptical voice and be ignored..

However there is potentially progress to be made with the show. I would like to do an in depth investigation where Ninox opened up items like contracts, emails, exact filming schedules, all the edited material and so forth. Ninox have already extended an invitation to me to go visit them in Wellington and this could form part of that. Interviews with the psychics in the context of the show could be revealing if taken independently of each other. Tracking down information like where the psychics were before filming, opportunities and openings where they could have found the information, etc. I am probably thinking waaaaay to ambitiously but it's a start Identifying issues such as those on the silly beliefs site where editing clearly occurred etc is important. Ultimately we have to show that the show is far from as watertight as it claims it was with it's conditions. Then we either get Ninox on side as they see the psychics could have tricked them or we expose them as cheats. Either result is useful, and if we fail, because we haven't directly targeted the psychics we have a little shelter.



That would be useful - although I haven't really thought about the publicity side of things. Making a site available where families who were involved could opt into the investigation would probably be very useful.



I think there is a lot to be said for being open and transparent. There is no way these guys are going to be tricked into thinking we are on their side but if we are honest about how we are going to approach the issue then we might just get more out of them. I do think it is important not to go the other way either and approach it from a "these guys a cheats, lets expose them" direction either - keeping the language (and approach) entirely neutral is probably really important.

Those are just some initial thoughts off the top of my head, still digesting the whole idea however.

Cheers
Ian

Thanks - Really good thoughts and comments. If I’m going to do this I want to do it while the show is either still running or at least fresh in peoples minds.

The odds of any of the show psychics actually accepting an invitation to honestly prove their abilities would be worse than the odds of winning Lotto. This has nothing to do with their desire for the money, but everything to do with their ability to actually prove their claims. Public opinion and perception that the invitation is credible is more important than whether any of the psychics accept it. As well as being open and transparent, it would also be important to be non-biased and friendly. I don’t think “put up or shut up” challenges that offer unbelievably (to some) large prizes have much credibility with most people, regardless of how genuine they are. Important factors of this invitation would be that it is offered exclusively to the SM psychics, and they are only required to repeat their show performance (maybe 2-3 times). To save time, I may provide $20,000 of my own money as the prize. I think this amount may be enough. Others could contribute more if they wish. Also, I think the invitation would only need to run for 3 or 6 months.

I’m now thinking that perhaps both the “invitation” and the “investigation” should be done. If the invitation is offered first and it’s not accepted, it then lends justification to the investigation. As I said earlier, my main concern with an investigation is that if it doesn’t come up with any real results, it could work in the favour of the psychics. Perhaps the often used “new evidence has been unearthed, and investigations are ongoing” may quell this. My biggest problem in doing all this is that I’m very time poor. My resolve is quite strong however.

Didn’t know you have been so proactive with Ninox. Keep up the good work.

 

[hmmm...]

Very pleased to see your steely resolve ynot - kia kaha !



What is the nature of your complaint to the BSA? As far as I am aware (correct me if I am wrong) you have to complain to the TV channel (TV2) first, then go to the BSA. You also have to cite the particular section of the free-to air code that you are claiming has been broken.


An independently run test based what the psychics claim to be able to do on SM would be perfect, and would nail them, which is of course why they won't take part as you said. However, publicity for that test would be very valuable and I'll certainly help out however I can. I believe TA mentioned that he knew some people at TV3?

The more fronts we open in attacking this programme the better. The Silly Beliefs website and Sensing ******** are already up and running and I have an appeal going off to the BSA this week. I think a bit of publicty regarding a challenge/investigation can only be good.

What's your first step?

 

[ynot]

Very pleased to see your steely resolve ynot - kia kaha !

What is the nature of your complaint to the BSA? As far as I am aware (correct me if I am wrong) you have to complain to the TV channel (TV2) first, then go to the BSA. You also have to cite the particular section of the free-to air code that you are claiming has been broken.

My BSA complain may have been done incorrectly as I did it is a real rush. But that doesn’t matter, mistakes can be fixed. It also adds to the quantity of complaints they are getting. “Squeaky wheels get oiled“. Unfortunately sometimes they also get thrown away. Have also registered a complaint with Consumer Affairs and have asked the police to define their official position regarding acting on information directly provided by psychics. Don’t know if anyone else has done this already. The show certainly plays on the suggestion that the police take the psychics seriously and act on information provided by them.

An independently run test based what the psychics claim to be able to do on SM would be perfect, and would nail them, which is of course why they won't take part as you said. However, publicity for that test would be very valuable and I'll certainly help out however I can. I believe TA mentioned that he knew some people at TV3?

I also have some connections with media people. I don’t think there would be much trouble in getting free media exposure for this. TA hasn’t commented yet. Hope he doesn’t think I’m trying to rain on his parade. That’s not my intent. What do you think of the investigation concept?

The more fronts we open in attacking this programme the better. The Silly Beliefs website and Sensing ******** are already up and running and I have an appeal going off to the BSA this week. I think a bit of publicty regarding a challenge/investigation can only be good.

What's your first step?

Thanks. I guess deciding the best course of action and going with it. Unfortunately for me, time is the enemy.

 

[hmmm...]

Investigation concept sounds really good - it will depend on how it is carried out of course, I don't know what sources etc you have, but it certainly has potential.

Great idea contacting the police - I know TA has talked them but I haven't seen a definitive statement from them. I imagine they will be a bit vague as SM is useful at focusing attention on old cases (not that it has helped at all).

Let us know about your complaint to the BSA/TV2 - I have one in the pipeline at the moment (about to be appealed to BSA after TV2 did not uphold it) so I may be able to help out on that front.

 

[ynot]

If any of the psychics did accept an invitation to replicate their SM performance, I’m sure a TV production company would be interested in taping the attempt for publication, and may be happy to pay $20,000 for the right to do this. I will make enquiries

 

[six7s]

If any of the psychics did accept an invitation to replicate their SM performance

That's a pretty BIG if...

In my crystal ball, I can't see a fraudster trading $20k or even $2M for the goose that lays golden eggs

 

[ynot]

That's a pretty BIG if...

In my crystal ball, I can't see a fraudster trading $20k or even $2M for the goose that lays golden eggs

Perhaps your crystal ball needs new batteries

I could cover the cost of the “success fee” by winning Lotto (better odds).

 

[ynot]

Despite current business time pressures I’ve decided to do this (SM Psychic Invitation) which could be followed up by an investigation. All I need to do is create the website and then get as much media exposure as possible. Any feedback as to site design, content, rules, etc would be appreciated. I not sure that using this forum for this is appropriate. If anyone wants to contact me directly they can do so via tonyandrews@xtra.co.nz . I will provide a password protected link to the developing site when I get started. This may take a couple/few of weeks.

Current quick thoughts . . .
Invitation to run for 3 months. Success fee to be $20,000. Psychics required to conduct 2 trials. Solved, unsolved and missing persons cases would be used. Psychics provided with a bag containing personal article/articles of the victim. Articles verified by family members who are required to sign a confidentiality agreement. A list of things the psychic are required to give accurate information on needs to be compiled. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[ynot]

I’ve managed to find (steal) some time to make a start on the site. Would appreciate any comments, criticisms, suggestions, etc.

To view - http://www.smpi.co.nz/

 

[hmmm...]

first question that pops to mind...how are you going to get a personal item from the victim?

Also by limiting the test to murder cases you run the risk that by reading a book on unsolved NZ cases the psychic might fluke it, which would be a disaster. Why not just use sealed envelopes with photos of dead people - have, say 30 envelopes, psychic can pick 5 of their choice and the would have to reveal name, address whatever of that person - they don't have to be murder victims do they? That way the chances of fluking it are zero.
What do you reckon??

 

[ynot]

first question that pops to mind...how are you going to get a personal item from the victim?

Also by limiting the test to murder cases you run the risk that by reading a book on unsolved NZ cases the psychic might fluke it, which would be a disaster. Why not just use sealed envelopes with photos of dead people - have, say 30 envelopes, psychic can pick 5 of their choice and the would have to reveal name, address whatever of that person - they don't have to be murder victims do they? That way the chances of fluking it are zero.
What do you reckon??

Thanks for the feedback.

The terms and conditions would give me 6 months to set up the test. I would get the personal items from immediate family members that would have to sign to validate their authenticity and also sign a confidentiality agreement. Not sure if items of evidence could obtained from the police.

SM just uses unsolved missing person cases. I would be using murder, unsolved murder and missing person cases. If I was to use just dead people the psychics might claim that murdered people are easier to communicate with because of the nature of their death. Imagine how many of these there would be for just the greater Auckland area.There would be more than 30 as in your envelope suggestion. I did think of providing several boxes at the start of the test and they would have to pick the correct one. I don’t think there is any way of completely overcoming a lucky guess and it can only be minimised. I also thought of making them perform the test twice.

I want to keep the test as similar to the SM format as possible so it remains relevant to the show. It’s as much the show that’s being tested as the psychic ability. If any do accept the test it would be filmed and broadcast on TV.