Scientific explanation for Bermuda Triangle?

[krelnius]

With all the intelligence floating around this forum I thought I'd ask a question that I'd love a reasonable answer to, which is the Bermuda Triangles possble scientific explanation.

I would rather not hear these ideas: Atlantis, Aliens, Pirates, or Sea Monsters.

With that out of the way, I assume most of you know a little about it since it is a paranormal hot topic in my experience, just a few things that really puzzle me is the dissapearance of most of the flying crafts. A boat can sink from some kind of leak or something but for an entire team of pilots to go down all at once is really mind boggling to me.

Another important fact I want to include is that the earliest dating record of strange occurences in the area is the sea log of Christopher Columbus, and finally that although many amazingly huge ships have been lost alltogether with huge crews never to be seen again SOME ships have been recovered in perfect condition with no sign of damage to the vessel or any sign of struggle or anything suspicious at all aside from the entire crew being gone without a trace. The most amazing instance of this I heard was a ship in which the crews dinner was still warm when the ship was recovered without any sign of the crew.

I've heard the argument that the Bermuda Triangle doesnt actually have a higher incident rate than any other area of the worlds water but just gets more publicity for accidents that happen there because of the name that made it famous. I really don't have any resources to check lost ship records to know this for sure, if anyone does I'd love to hear the facts.

Alright, with all that out of the way, and taking note of the fact that most recorded audio and even Columbus' log mention their compass being affected. Just thought that would be worth mentioning for scientific debate. Alright, aside from all that lets go! Someone please answer my question and give me a scientific explanation or reasoning behind the Bermuda Triangle!!

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Explaination for the Bermuda Triangle? There is no Bermuda Triangle. Lemme take the dog out and grab a smoke and I'll see if I can dig some some good links.

 

[Bandersnatch]

entire team of pilots to go down all at once

Are you refering to Flight 19?

As well:

As the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria sailed through the area in 1492, it is reported that Columbus's compass went haywire and that he and his crew saw weird lights in the sky, but these events have mundane explanations. From the account in Columbus's journal, it is thought that his compass's slight inaccuracy stemmed from nothing more than the discrepancy between true north and magnetic north. As for the lights, Columbus wrote of seeing "a great flame of fire" that crashed into the ocean -- probably a meteor. He saw lights in the sky again on October 11, which, of course, was the day before his famous landing. The lights, brief flashes near the horizon, were spotted in the area where dry land turned out to be.

From:
Here, which isn't exactly a skeptical site.

EDIT: Note that on the same page is also a description of Flight 19.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If you check out the History Channel, right now (midnight central) they have a good show on it airing.

 

[krelnius]

yep

actually, speaking of the show on the history channel, yeah, I originally posted this while it was on a commercial....I watched it. They talked a lot about flgith 19, yep.

Also, the chances of a meteor going down infront of them are incredibly remote. I don't think I've ever heard a single story of any other ship at sea witnessing a meteor splash down. Couple that with the fact that he noted the compass disturbance at the same area of water they saw the meteor and that area just happens to fall in line with todays Bermuda Triangle.

Also, flight 19 reported that their instruments, particularly the compass in each plane was acting strange and not working. The show on the history channel mentioned this, they also had a retired military guy...not sure of rank so I'll call him a guy...and he noted that thunderstorms can mess up your compass. Not a single member of flight 19 reported any sign of bad weather whatsoever. Their was simply no weather to disturb their instruments and flight 19 is not the only case of strange compass behavior in that area.

Given that most cases report the compass acting strange here and not so many report meteors, and we have very little means to really know what Columbus saw, I am gonna assume his compass was affected by the same thing since he reported his compass doing this only in this area.

Also, since I've never heard another report of a meteor crashing into the sea that was witnessed by anyone...I dunno. The whole meteor thing just sounds like a stretch to me. I guess it could have been, but that still doesnt explain anything else.

I think a good start would be just adding up what we know can cause a compass to become screwy.

EDIT: I thought I should mention the USS Cyclops that went down after returning from a voyage to Brazil. The ship weighed 19,360 Tons, very large, and with a crew of 300+ she dissapeared completely. This was in early March 1918 and there was never any wreckage found.

 

[Kopji]

http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/archive/flight19.htm

...What are the facts?

I've been reading about the "mysterious" Bermuda Triangle, from a less credulous point of view, in The Bermuda Triangle Mystery -- Solved by Lawrence David Kusche (Harper & Row, 1975, 1986). Mr. Kusche says the mystery was pretty much laid to rest forty-four years ago by the official Navy investigation. Those who would keep the mystery alive probably have not read the investigation -- it is more than 400 pages long. And news reporters, who should be the most skeptical of all of us, repeat the fantastic details without verifying them.

The nature of Flight 19's mission is often misrepresented, as is the experience of the pilots and crew. The fourteen Navy airmen were on a training mission off the Florida coast. Four of the five pilots and eight of the nine crew members (the mission was one man short) were students, not the experienced airmen the story claims. The lead pilot, Lt. Charles C. Taylor, was a flight instructor and an experienced airman, but was unfamiliar with the Bermuda area.

Failure of Taylor's compass in the lead plane, and absence of a working clock in any of the planes, spelled navigational disaster for the mission. The Navy report surmised that Taylor thought he was west of the Florida panhandle when actually he was east of it, when he got lost. Consequently, he refused to fly due west, which would have brought him to the shore from which they all had taken off...

...

 

[Checkmite]

With all the intelligence floating around this forum I thought I'd ask a question that I'd love a reasonable answer to, which is the Bermuda Triangles possble scientific explanation.

I would rather not hear these ideas: Atlantis, Aliens, Pirates, or Sea Monsters.

Pirates - or to be more specific, their modern-day counterparts the drug-runners, are a very real threat and by no means extraordinary claims.

With that out of the way, I assume most of you know a little about it since it is a paranormal hot topic in my experience, just a few things that really puzzle me is the dissapearance of most of the flying crafts. A boat can sink from some kind of leak or something but for an entire team of pilots to go down all at once is really mind boggling to me.

Another important fact I want to include is that the earliest dating record of strange occurences in the area is the sea log of Christopher Columbus, and finally that although many amazingly huge ships have been lost alltogether with huge crews never to be seen again SOME ships have been recovered in perfect condition with no sign of damage to the vessel or any sign of struggle or anything suspicious at all aside from the entire crew being gone without a trace. The most amazing instance of this I heard was a ship in which the crews dinner was still warm when the ship was recovered without any sign of the crew.

As opposed to modern stories of complete disappearances, the stories of more or less intact vessels with missing crews is almost exclusively an artifact of old legends. The most famous of these, of course, is the Mary Celeste - that's the one with the "warm dinner" that you heard about - but these are all word-of-mouth anymore; it's not like a recent disappearance where we can search for documents. I do know, however, that the Celeste was found off the Azores, on the other side of the Atlantic from the Bermuda Triangle.

I've heard the argument that the Bermuda Triangle doesnt actually have a higher incident rate than any other area of the worlds water but just gets more publicity for accidents that happen there because of the name that made it famous. I really don't have any resources to check lost ship records to know this for sure, if anyone does I'd love to hear the facts.

This area does have a higher incidence rate, but it's not because of anything strange. The "Bermuda Triangle" is one of the most heavily-travelled areas of the world, for both air and sea craft. The area should have a higher accident/incident rate.

Alright, with all that out of the way, and taking note of the fact that most recorded audio and even Columbus' log mention their compass being affected. Just thought that would be worth mentioning for scientific debate. Alright, aside from all that lets go! Someone please answer my question and give me a scientific explanation or reasoning behind the Bermuda Triangle!!

Every case is different. Bad charts, inexperienced crews, pilot error. Bad weather. Large underground iron deposits deflecting compasses. Good old fashioned story-telling. All perfectly valid explanations.

 

[Skeptic]

There's nothing to explain; the area of the "Bermuda Triangle" has one of the most heavy sea and air traffic in the world. It is not at all surprising that once in a while a ship or plane disappear in unknown circumstances.

Thinking the Bermuda triangle is mysterious because it has more disappearances of ships and planes than areas with far less ship and plan traffic is a bit like thinking that New York City must be cursed by because it has a higher murder rate than a small village in Tennessee.

 

[Checkmite]

Also, flight 19 reported that their instruments, particularly the compass in each plane was acting strange and not working. The show on the history channel mentioned this, they also had a retired military guy...not sure of rank so I'll call him a guy...and he noted that thunderstorms can mess up your compass. Not a single member of flight 19 reported any sign of bad weather whatsoever. Their was simply no weather to disturb their instruments and flight 19 is not the only case of strange compass behavior in that area.

The problem is that most of this information is incorrect (not your fault). It's part of the Flight 19 "legend", which has become nothing but embellishment. Even the flight transcripts reported on TV shows are often simply retellings of complete fabrications. Here are the real facts: Flight 19 was led by Lt. Taylor, an experienced flight instructor who had just been assigned to Florida and was wholly unfamiliar with the region - so unfamiliar that despite the fact the flight departed Miami to the east, when Taylor decided the flight was lost he insisted that he believed he was in the Keys, southwest of Florida. The rest of the pilots were students. When Flight 19 took off, the weather report was for mostly cloudy skies and rain showers, and the rain continued to deteriorate all day, including the formation of thunderstorms. A plane, FT-74, was in contact with the flight, and while Taylor insisted his own compasses weren't working (more likely, in my opinion, he just didn't believe what they were telling him), none of the other students reports a compass malfunction. Indeed, when the flight decides they're in the Gulf of Mexico and decides to fly east (and AWAY from Florida), they are able to find the direction easily enough despite the bad weather. Nobody ever mentions anything about "white water", or the ocean "not looking right" - those statements seemed to have been invented by an author named Charles Berlitz, for a book he wrote about the Bermuda Triangle. Flight 19 wasn't a case of equipment malfunction, it was a case of disorientation as the result of unfamiliarity with the region.

A massive search-and-rescue effort was launched. One of the planes, a PBM Martin Mariner, also disappeared in the bad weather. It is thought to have exploded (a ship, the S.S. Gaines Mills, reported an airborne explosion at the Mariner's estimated last position - an accident which is compatible with a certain type of malfunction that particular aircraft was prone to). The search was called off after a few hours because the seas were unnavigable ("tremendous", is how one report put it). If the planes had run out of gas eventually and ditched in the ocean, there would certainly be no survivors, and the planes would be spare parts.

A good article on the subject can be found here.

If you decide you want to read a little bit about the 'Atlantis' side of the Bermuda Triangle, I suggest my over-long post here.

 

[casebro]

The newest, and I think the silliest, explanation is the "methane bubble theory". Someone has advanced the theory that methane from the sea bottom rises in a giant bubble- so big that ships fall into it and sink. I have two problems with that-

1) gas under pressure dissolves in water, and at the depth involved, it would all dissolve and later be released slowly, like in fizzy soda that is left to warm- it only foams when pressure is suddenly released, not when it goes flat sitting in a glass. The cold sea bottom water would only come to the top to release the gas when it upwells in places like the Gloucester Shoals, where it feeds the cod, not erupts into geysers of ship sinking methane bubbles.

2) Nobody has ever seen one of those expected giant methane bubbles. No close calls, no geysers caused by the rising bubbles, no passengers who complain of fainting due to lack of oxygen within those bubbles, no daily spontaneous explosions over "volcano shoals", no fireballs around lit cigarettes.

Just another wacko claim about the Triangle.

 

[UrsulaV]

I've also read--though I don't have any sources on hand, and it's been awhile, so somebody else may have to check up on this--that a number of disappearances attributed to the Bermuda Triangle actually happen somewhere way out of the range that would normally be considered the Triangle. But they get shoehorned into the Bermuda triangle legend because "They disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle!" is a lot more exciting than "Yup, another plane down."

If we want a woo theory, I say that whales out for vengeance are standing on each other's shoulders and slapping planes out of the sky with their flukes. It's as unproven as anything else, and it's a way more fun visual...

 

[RSLancastr]

I've also read--<snip>--that a number of disappearances attributed to the Bermuda Triangle actually happen somewhere way out of the range that would normally be considered the Triangle.

Yup. I believe that the book The Bermuda Triangle - Solved goes into this, as does a chapter in Randi's Flim-Flam!

A map with dots showing where supposed Bermuda Triangle incidents occured shows them actually being all over the place. When I get home I'll dig out Flim-Flam and be more specific.

 

[Just thinking]

The newest, and I think the silliest, explanation is the "methane bubble theory". Someone has advanced the theory that methane from the sea bottom rises in a giant bubble- so big that ships fall into it and sink. I have two problems with that-

1) gas under pressure dissolves in water, and at the depth involved, it would all dissolve and later be released slowly, like in fizzy soda that is left to warm- it only foams when pressure is suddenly released, not when it goes flat sitting in a glass. The cold sea bottom water would only come to the top to release the gas when it upwells in places like the Gloucester Shoals, where it feeds the cod, not erupts into geysers of ship sinking methane bubbles.

2) Nobody has ever seen one of those expected giant methane bubbles. No close calls, no geysers caused by the rising bubbles, no passengers who complain of fainting due to lack of oxygen within those bubbles, no daily spontaneous explosions over "volcano shoals", no fireballs around lit cigarettes.

Just another wacko claim about the Triangle.

Silly? Wacko?

I think not ... I have seen videos of oil rigs almost capsizing as disturbed methane gas plumes rose to the surface resulting in seriously lowering the buoyancy forces keeping it afloat. Have they taken down ships?

Also, tests were done to determine just how much methane in air (as a percentage) would cause an airplane engine similar to the ones used on flight 19 to stall out. It turned out to be less than 1% -- and it was almost immediate. Being less dense than air, it would rise above the water into low flying paths. Also, it seriously affects the instruments (altimeter and air speed) into making the pilot perform improper (if not fatal) decisions.

From here ...

Hypothetically, methane gas might also be involved in airplane crashes, as it is not as dense as normal air and thus would not generate the amount of lift required to keep the airplane flying. Furthermore, methane may interfere with the function of an altimeter in an airplane, which determines the altitude by measuring the density of the surrounding air: since methane is less dense, the altimeter would indicate that the airplane is climbing, which may cause the pilot to fly the airplane lower, crashing it. Another possibility is that methane in the engines disrupts the mixture of fuel and air, possibly stopping combustion and stalling the engines. All of these effects of methane have been demonstrated experimentally.

 

[balrog666]

In addition, Flight 19 was tracked by radar out of Pensacola and Mayfield and they were instructed on their error. They eventually turned around but ran out of gas before making the coast. All blame went to the instructor who was new to the east Florida coast, got lost, and panicked.

 

[Molinaro]

The newest, and I think the silliest, explanation is the "methane bubble theory". Someone has advanced the theory that methane from the sea bottom rises in a giant bubble- so big that ships fall into it and sink. I have two problems with that-

1) gas under pressure dissolves in water, and at the depth involved, it would all dissolve and later be released slowly, like in fizzy soda that is left to warm- it only foams when pressure is suddenly released, not when it goes flat sitting in a glass. The cold sea bottom water would only come to the top to release the gas when it upwells in places like the Gloucester Shoals, where it feeds the cod, not erupts into geysers of ship sinking methane bubbles.

2) Nobody has ever seen one of those expected giant methane bubbles. No close calls, no geysers caused by the rising bubbles, no passengers who complain of fainting due to lack of oxygen within those bubbles, no daily spontaneous explosions over "volcano shoals", no fireballs around lit cigarettes.

Just another wacko claim about the Triangle.

You should at least refute the claim as it is made, and not based on your own imaginings of what they are suggesting.

The area is rife with evidence of landslides. It's those landslides that releases the gas pockets that are trapped under the sea floor.. not in the water.

These releases of gas have been filmed and are real.

 

[Ed]

There's nothing to explain; the area of the "Bermuda Triangle" has one of the most heavy sea and air traffic in the world. It is not at all surprising that once in a while a ship or plane disappear in unknown circumstances.

Thinking the Bermuda triangle is mysterious because it has more disappearances of ships and planes than areas with far less ship and plan traffic is a bit like thinking that New York City must be cursed by because it has a higher murder rate than a small village in Tennessee.

I think that if one examined any area with the same concentration of traffic, one would find the exact same thing. Another problem is that the run from Miamni to the Bahamas attracts people who should not really be either flying or pioleting a boat alone. I think that the lack of experience of a lot of these people is the real cause of the "triangle".

BTW, a lot of people and aircraft vanish in the continental US "without a trace". D. B Cooper, where are you?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Shallow gas pockets causing loss of bouyancy are indeed a real phenomenon. This is a proven threat to drilling rigs, which by their operations are apt to disturb surface formation, triggering gas release.
This is so in theory at any depth, but high pressure, shallow gas is far harder to control than the same pressure at greater depth.

The gas makeup may also be critical. As well as methane, CO2 and H2S may be present at high concentration. Not only will that stop engines dead, it stops people dead, too.

Having said this, the risk to ships is much less and to aircraft , I think , negligible. A ship would have to be incredibly unlucky to sail over such a pocket just as it happens to release. Vibration from big marine engines in shallow water might be the final trigger, but this could not explain the loss of sailing ships.

Also - the gas release would quickly die off to a trickle. In that case, a ship which settled intact might regain some bouyancy - a tanker filled with oil for example-. At least, I would expect a lot of wreckage to resurface.

An aircraft entering such a gas cloud might well lose power, but unless stunningly unlucky would be carried out of the cloud in seconds by it's momentum. Unless the pilot also blacked out and was at very low altitude, I'd expect him to regain control. Now if that occurred a couple of times in the same area, I'm sure it would be investigated.

Anyone who has flown over the sea on a day when the sun is not visible knows how easy it is to get disorientated. That's when you must trust your instruments. If you don't , you're in deep trouble.

 

[Oolon Colluphid]

I remembered seeing a show on TLC or Discovery years ago about "The Great Lakes Triangle", and that it was reputed to have more mysterious disappearances than the Bermuda triangle. So I found this site:


"The Bermuda Triangle is not the only zone of mystery on the Earth. The Great Lakes have an even higher concentration of unexplainable ship disappearances than anywhere else in the world."

http://mimufon.org/1980%20articles/TheGreatLakesTriangle.htm

 

[krelnius]

soooo

Ok, in response to the pirate part, pirates or drug runners at sea can't cause an aircraft to go missing very well and even if they were responsible for some large number of ships being attacked and dissapearing with no wreckage (which would make sense if they scrapped a ship out somehow) then how does one explain such ships as the USS Cyclops?

Probably as famous as flight 19 really, a 19,000+ ton ship and a crew of 300+ really seems out of a drug runners league if u ask me. I'm not saying that drug runners cant kidnap and kill like any other criminals, just that some of these incidents can not be explained by pirates or criminals unless their included in some kind of large scale conspiracy and I think I should add "Large Scale Conspiracy" to the list of excuses I don't want to hear.

I think the methane gas idea is pretty good, especially with the mention of disturbing instruments. Coincidentally, if every area with lots of air and sea traffic has just as high a rate of missing ships and persons then why have I not heard of these places? I am not saying that theory isnt substantial, I just have not read of any other place with a reputation like the Bermuda Triangle.

In response to some of the cases taking place outside the "triangle" itself I don't think means anything really...I'm not claiming paranormal causes here, I'm not saying something patrols this exact area. Its really unrealistic to assume that if anything strange was going on in that general area that it would exist only inside that triangle which was drawn by a person after the area became famous. I simply use the name Bermuda Traingle because thats how the area is know.

Like I said, if someone can show cold hard facts of ship and aircraft loss anywhere else in the world thats comparable then I'll consider this all laid to rest. If need be we can drop Flight 19 alltogether because I really think its getting us off topic. I don't care if the pilot was confused or if the sea was choppy and it was raining and a rescue ship saw a fire that could have been the other rescue ship exlpoding which is considerable because of the amount of fuel the ships carried.

I would like to point out though that the military and their 400 page report still can't find a single trace of flight 19 even though all 5 planes went down with no damage to them. This should have left huge solid parts intact and we have found plenty of sunken ships and planes even 1 mistaken for flight 19 because of its location yet still no trace of 5 full planes and as far as I can tell no trace of the rescue ship that was lost either.

Also, I can't help but wonder if all 4 student planes realized tyler was lost and incoherent then why didnt one of them use their brain and fly west using their working compass'? I mean, if I was a pilot in training and my instructor was clearly incompetent and I knew I could save my own life and my fellow pilots lives I would have instructed the team to follow me to safety. None of them did this. Self preservation is stronger than "lets just fly around over choppy sea in the rain until we run out of fuel" it doesnt make sense to me at all. I don't care if tyler was a complete nutcase, the students were practicing dropping bombs so they knew atleast how to fly and could have saved theirselves if they had working instruments. Nobody gets in a military plane without knowing what their doing and yet all 4 of the other pilots just decided they would follow a clearly lost captain and die? That doesnt make
sense.

I also read someone mention large iron deposts possibly messing up a compass. Could it do that to a plane if the iron was all the way at the bottom of the water below?

I'm really starting to like the methane gas idea as well, could large deposits of iron and large amounts of methane gas be in relatively the same area or are these 2 not often found together?

 

[krelnius]

EDIT: Ok, so Oolon found a place and that would naturally mean to keep my word I consider this solved but I think the link Oolon posted actually strengthens the Bermuda Triangles case in that they both share record of magnetic disturbance.

Honestly, how many times can it be added up as just an accident by choppy seas and peoples mistakes? Eventually there has to be a better reason than that for such high incident rates. Especially for a place like that to have more mysterious occurences than such a busy area like the Bermuda Triangle. I doubt that more people pass this "Great Lakes Triangle" than pass through the Bermuda Triangle yet it would appear MORE unexplained accidents occur there. So I think the "heavy traffic" idea can be thrown out here unless I'm just way off and this area in the great lakes is more popular.

Great stuff, thanks for the link Oolon and if u ever hear of another listing of that show please let me know cause I can't get enough of this stuff.