School - Why can't I choose atheism?

swifty

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Ok so I have an English assignment which states:

Imagine you belong to a professional group who, as part of their repertoire, present topics of interest and/or concern to the public through public speaking and audio/visual demonstrations

...

...

This collage should provide the listener/viewer with an overview of a theme (or aspects of a theme), experience, image or concern of your choosing."

Now I, in plain terms, suck at English. I have tried very hard and put a lot of effort into things in which I always get returned a 'C' [even when the teacher said "Quite Good" on my first draft, implying at least a B or greater if I fixed up the errors]. I once gota a B+ when a different teacher was marking our orals...

Anyway, I couldn't think of anything but it said to "Select a topic that interests you" and I immediately thought of Religion, well anti-religion. This seemed a bit negative so I change my idea to Atheism. I would talk about the advantages of Atheism and why one shouldn't be blinded by faith. The big thing though is that my teacher is an open Christian! She doesn't like me and I don't like her so I thought "Why the hell not?" I asked her and she said it would not be relevant. I'm sorry, is the way we view and act in our world not considered an "interest and/or concern to the public"?

I am thinking of stilling doing it despite what she said but I would like to hear what you guys thought on the topic... or if you had any alternative ideas? haha...


Oh also I would need 2 pieces of poetry, do any of you know of some great poems which promote critical thinking or atheism? I will google this, but if you have any favourites that'd be great too.

So what do you all think?
 
Ok so I have an English assignment which states:



Now I, in plain terms, suck at English. I have tried very hard and put a lot of effort into things in which I always get returned a 'C' [even when the teacher said "Quite Good" on my first draft, implying at least a B or greater if I fixed up the errors]. I once gota a B+ when a different teacher was marking our orals...

Anyway, I couldn't think of anything but it said to "Select a topic that interests you" and I immediately thought of Religion, well anti-religion. This seemed a bit negative so I change my idea to Atheism. I would talk about the advantages of Atheism and why one shouldn't be blinded by faith. The big thing though is that my teacher is an open Christian! She doesn't like me and I don't like her so I thought "Why the hell not?" I asked her and she said it would not be relevant. I'm sorry, is the way we view and act in our world not considered an "interest and/or concern to the public"?

I am thinking of stilling doing it despite what she said but I would like to hear what you guys thought on the topic... or if you had any alternative ideas? haha...


Oh also I would need 2 pieces of poetry, do any of you know of some great poems which promote critical thinking or atheism? I will google this, but if you have any favourites that'd be great too.

So what do you all think?

For poems, do a Forum search here and look for anything by Mercutio. : ) Check in the "Forum Community" section for The Language Award threads. Mercutio isn't the only good poet!

As for your predicament: where are you located? Are you in the US, or somewhere else? What do your country's laws say about, for example, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion?

As to the teacher saying "it's not relevant", find out from her what she means -- not relevant to what? The assignment, as you quote it, says it should be something that concerns you. And there are plenty of atheist (or, failing that, humanist) groups out there, so it's not as if she can claim that there's no such thing as an atheist group. If she still refuses to allow this, I'd suggest following one of a couple of roads: if you're in college, I'd recommend that you go talk to the dean (or whomever's next in the college food chain). If you're in high school, talk to your folks first. Then check in with the school administrator (i.e., principal). You might also want to discreetly check on what topics the other students have chosen; if your teacher allows another student to do his or her topic on something religious, and is not allowing you to do your topic on atheism, then that is a serious problem.

Good luck! Please let us know how this develops!
 
I can speak both as a teacher and as a student who was in your exact same position.

Firstly, I sympathise completely. I had an English teacher who, in my current opinion, was intimidated by the fact that her students often knew more than her. I say this not to make a slur, but based on the fact that her feedback was substandard, marking inconsistent (and conflicted with moderation from other teachers) and she didn't know some basic rules of grammar, spelling and was not familiar with (IMO) important authors such as Chaucer. I kid you not. My marks were good only because of my standing with the head of English, who I was on excellent terms with.

However I had the same arguments. And while I could always go over her head, she could make lessons hard for me in the meantime.

As a teacher; go with the flow. I say that only because unless you have somebody else who will bat for you, in the end you're at the mercy of this teacher's system. They could be totally wrong, and unless there is a dispassionate process of appeal you can go through (which is missing in many educational systems) you have to wear it. In the end she can make your life a hassle.

Take solice in the fact that in the end, it won't make much difference. Suck up, give her what she wants, make a grab for the marks you can and know in your heart you're right and that life will in the end get easier. It's called 'playing the game', and in this one you're just going to have to take a dive, sorry.

Sucks.

Athon
 
Come prepared with two proposals. First, on the chance that your teacher really actually does simply think that the topic does not qualify as a "professional group who, as part of their repertoire, present topics of interest and/or concern to the public through public speaking and audio/visual demonstrations", bring in the recent Time Magazine issue, reviews of Dawkins/Dennett/Hitchens, et al., the University of Minnesota study, a review of the ABC excuse of a "debate" with Kirk Cameron...point out that this is a current hot issue, and that many different atheists are choosing different pathways to get a message across (and that the message itself is vastly different from person to person). As a negatively defined group, atheism has quite a different task than a group with a particular creed or message to get across. I think you could make a very good case that this could be an excellent, if difficult, assignment.

The other option you should prepare is on a topic that is a sure "go". Have an outline prepared, just so the teacher does not feel you are challenging for the sake of challenging. Say something like "I could go with this topic, but I really prefer the atheism topic, and feel it is legitimate...but it is your call."

Because Athon is right, even if he can't spell "solace". Bottom line is you are playing by the teacher's rules.
 
Thank you Jackalgirl I will definitely look into that Language Award thread and Mercutio seems like a good start :) I will post the developments!


Athon: Ah yes I have often been told to go down this road. But in the end, is it worth being fake just for a few good marks [which in the scheme of things] don't matter?

My own opinions, thoughts and ideas will always matter. What I get in my English course at High School however, will not.

This is one of the many flaws I see in the education system [in Australia BTW] how can we be marked so subjectively? Another thing which annoys me is how I can be marked on my own imagination... How can you put a rating on how creative someone is [this relates more to the poetry side of our English course].

Anyway, unless I can think of something else I am interested in I think I will go with Atheism. But I wonder what specifically should my goal be? I like to set goals...

Should my goal for the assignment be something like "to spread awareness of Atheism"? That seems a bit "preachy"... The more I think of this, the more it seems my Atheism idea is attempting to preach to people, if someone did Christianity and preached to me I would certainly not be happy.

Oh I don't know, I just don't know...
 
Well if it isn't Mercutio!

Reading your post has sparked something. What about the purpose is just to clear away some of the negative connotations people think when they hear the word "Atheism". I basically just try to show how it is a very rational, acceptable, logical and non-satanistic view on life.

I suppose instead of trying to debate other religions, I could work on opposing the negative beliefs people associate with Atheism. I.e. people may think Atheists are satanistic, apathetic, close minded, etc...

This could bring up many interesting topics and actually be very beneficial for me to do! [it would help me develop as a person].

The only caution is, I would want it to be very good. I don't want a half-arsed assignment which makes Atheism look like a joke and/or some sort of idiot who just hates religion and argues things for no reason.

Does this seem reasonable? Atheism, the truth!
 
I don't see how 'Atheists' qualifies as a professional group. Unless someone is paying us to not believe, in which case I missed my cheque.

I am kidding - there are Atheist organisations which I would say fit the bill nicely. Use one as your model. For example http://www.atheistalliance.org/aai/index.php
 
Athon: Ah yes I have often been told to go down this road. But in the end, is it worth being fake just for a few good marks [which in the scheme of things] don't matter?

Well, again, it's up to you. If you're happy butting heads with this teacher and raising a fuss, even if you ultimately know you might not get your own way...then go for it. Remain polite and explain your view succinctly and clearly, and acknowledge (as Mercutio said) that ultimately it's her call.

I'm always encouraging of students to speak their minds. It's not that I don't think you should cause waves. I'm just wondering if there's any point.

This is one of the many flaws I see in the education system [in Australia BTW] how can we be marked so subjectively? Another thing which annoys me is how I can be marked on my own imagination... How can you put a rating on how creative someone is [this relates more to the poetry side of our English course].

Well, this is my problem with teachers, not the system. Ultimately there should be a clear criteria you get presented with which objectively points out those things your article should include. That way, it's easy to see what you have to demonstrate without regarding the actual opinion itself. However, this can get lost on those responsible for implementing the system; the teachers themselves.

And it's not just Australia. Actually, our system is quite good in comparison with some others in the world. But I do understand your issue with it.

Can I ask which state you're in?

Athon
 
Why of course, that would be Queensland :)

And I'm still thinking about what topic and looking around for poems... ahh the fun of school assignments!
 
Why of course, that would be Queensland :)

And I'm still thinking about what topic and looking around for poems... ahh the fun of school assignments!

I used to teach in Brisbane. Care to let me know what school? (PM me if you'd like).

I currently teach science in a Canberra Catholic girl's school, BTW. So I can completely understand where you're coming from.

Athon
 
And I'm still thinking about what topic and looking around for poems... ahh the fun of school assignments!

I couldn't for the life of me think of what Jackalgirl was referring to for me, but this one comes close, I think. It was re-worked for that thread; I can un-re-work it if you need something less geared toward the individual it is geared toward. If that parsed.

I'd suggest Dr Adequate's poems as a better hunting-ground.
 
Actually, I will defend the teacher. Partly because I think she has a point, and partly to be a devil's advocate, since everyone else is backing swifty. It doesn't hurt to sharpen your argument against an imaginary opponent before you take it to your teacher, yes?


Okay, from wikipedia we have a couple of paragraphs describing professional bodys. There are two main attributes which they have, either singularly or in combination.

They are an organization that exist to further a particular profession. In that role, they may either 1) protect the public interest, and 2) protect the interests of the professionals.

For example, they may oversee licensing of the profession, which would serve #1. Or they may be a labor union, which would serve #2.

Finally, another type which doesn't seem to fit easily into the above are academic bodies, which act as societies for academic pursuits.

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So, does atheism 1) fit the definition of a professional body, and 2) does it match the intent of the assignment.

I will start with some obvious counterexamples. Suppose we have a labor union for autoworkers. It is clearly a professional body, so it meets that requirement. However, they are not in the business of presenting information to the public on a regular basis, so I would say it is not a good topic for the assignment. That's not to say that it couldn't be forced into that role; we could imagine the union presenting information on how labor unions help the economy, or whatever, but we know that's not really what they do.

So, how does atheism fit in. Well, there is no profession for atheism. There are certainly professionals who debate in the public sphere, Dawkin, et. al., but that is not their profession. We can hypothesize somebody whose entire income comes from atheist activities - such as someone who publishes a magazine. But if they were to join a trade organization, they would join a publisher's organization.

Now let's look at a suggested group that would meet the definition, the Atheist Alliance International. It was the first thing that came to me as well, so it's probably a good candidate. However, read the description:

Atheist Alliance International (AAI) is an organization of independent religion-free groups and individuals in the United States and around the world. Our primary goals are to help democratic, atheistic societies become established and grow and to work in coalition with like-minded groups to advance rational thinking through educational processes. Virtually all income goes to these causes.

Okay, they clearly meet the public interest requirement. But there is no profession here. They are trying to advance causes, not professions.


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I don't know why the teacher gave this assignment, or how much her christianity is biasing her decision. If the goal is simply to teach you how to create presentations, then a bit of leniency in this matter would be nice. Teachers should encourage student's interests, in my view. However, there seems to be more to this assignment: specifically, the professional body aspect. To successfully complete this assignment, you not only have to create presentations, but you have to imagine the needs of a profession, how that profession can positively or negatively affect the public, decide what message is important to bring to the public, and then present it. I'm imagining a counterargument, that atheism can also positively or negatively affect the public, and thus the creative effort is the same. Well, I argue no. The needs of a profession and the needs of the public can often differ. It'd be great to be able to operate, lay pipe, drill for oil, etc., w/o concern for safety. More jobs, more profit, better wages for all. However, that need must be balanced against the public's interests - good health care, pipes that don't leak, drill sites that aren't ecological disasters. Hence, licensing, public awareness compaigns, etc. As far as I can see, the atheist groups are merely interested in the public's interests - they are fighting something, churches and such, but entities that are not part of their organization. Pastor's don't join AAI, in general, nor do school board members who want to teach creationism in school.

Hence, while it's an intriguing choice, I feel that atheism isn't relevant to the assignment. It's a group that opposes professionals - pastors, school boards, etc., in the name of the public good. (oppose is too strong, but work with me, I'm not going to type all day to get exactly the correctly nuanced expression).

ETA: Let me give an example of what I think would be a good choice for this assignment. We can compare it against the atheism choice. Okay, how about a journalism association. They exist to support journalism, and many journalists belong. Now, there is some shoddy journalism around, so an arm of the organization researches bad journalistic practices, and brings them to light. They may publish findings of bad reports. They may issue white papers and have conferences on how to maintain integrity in the profession. They may have some public speakers on stand by to go in front of the press to pontificate on current events (say a journalist fabricated a story, or a newspaper squashed an important story because the white house requested it not be published).

This is clearly a body that is supporting a profession (journalism) by educating the public about the positive and negative aspects of that profession. It supports the profession by being a public mouthpiece when a journalist 'goes bad', and by being an industry watchdog (calling out censorship).

I can't figure out how to write the paragraph above by substituting in atheism. Any atheistic organization I know exists to educate the public. There's no profession involved, and there is no (significant) watchdog element protecting the public against self serving behaviors of atheists.

If the assignment was for an educational society or a public interest society, it'd be a great choice. But that's not the assignment.
 
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Swifty,

Here is the US, religious topics are generally not encouraged in the classroom. (well, that's the hope but the christians keep forcing their religion into our public schools.) Some people consider Athiesm religion and simply can't grasp the concept that it's not. Folks here can actually get into trouble preaching in public schools, well, sometimes, maybe.

I have a suggestion for a topic: Using science and logic as a basis for running government.

(our current US government seems to be run by god himself)
 
Okay, from wikipedia we have a couple of paragraphs describing professional bodys. There are two main attributes which they have, either singularly or in combination.

They are an organization that exist to further a particular profession. In that role, they may either 1) protect the public interest, and 2) protect the interests of the professionals.

Either you or I are misunderstanding the assignment. i suspect it's not me.

Here's the relevant quote (from the OP):
Imagine you belong to a professional group who, as part of their repertoire, present topics of interest and/or concern to the public through public speaking and audio/visual demonstrations

The group is professional, the topics are of public interest. Two different roles.

I belong to a couple of such groups; our professional organization is devoted to the enhancement of the public understanding of various topics. For example,
we will provide a platform for a lawyer to speak about computer crime (from a legal perspective) to a general audience, or a historian to speak about local history (again to a general audience).

My "profession"? "Educator," as you might expect. By enhancing public understanding, we serve the public interest. And the AGM is usually a good dinner. But we're not (as a group) lawyers or historians, although we certainly include lawyers and historians among our membership.
 
Wow roger, thanks for that! haha that was great to read although you may have gone off on a bit of a tangent there, however I respect the amount of work you put into that :)

Ok firstly I guess I should have posted the entire instructions I was given...

"Imagine you belong to a professional group who, as part of their repertoire, present topics of interest and/or concern to the public through public speaking and audio/visual demonstrations.
At the next group meeting, members have been asked to give a brief overview to the group of a subject they could include in a presentation. You have chosen a topic that you think could be a possible choice for your next performance.

The method you have chosen for the presentation is a spoken collage composed of sections of at least two poems and at least one other text that could be used to demonstrate the topic of your choice. In this collage, you will convey the major aspects of your topic with dialogue that links the pieces you have chosen for the collage, making it clear to the listener why these pieces are included.


This collage should provide the listener/viewer with an overview of a theme (or aspects of a theme), experience, image or concern of your choosing. Focus on the discourses that are operating within the texts and how the listened could be positioned to respon. Ensure that the sections of text you choose are suitable linked."

We are then given an "Help" section which advises us to "Select a topic that interests you[us]."

So we are just "imagining" that we belong to a professional group. Can we not imagine this professional group is going around creating awareness about Atheism?

I will not just blatantly preach Atheistic beliefs. But I would like to clear things up and at least leave the audience with thought provoking concepts and ideas... Such as, the pure chance we believe in the belief we do, the affects of chance of when and where we were born and who we were born to which help govern the faith we will choose, [insert other thought provoking ideas] etc...

I think i will go ahead with this, it is something different, something interesting and something [i feel] is important. I will give it my best shot, that's all I can do...

Thanks for all of your help guys! If you wanna continue helping by suggesting some ideas on Atheism to point out which are thought provoking and interesting that'd be great :D

Oh and this site is great for poems! - http://atheistempire.com/writings/poetry_text.php

I have my eyes set on a couple of these :)

Thanks again

-Dave
 
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Ok so I have an English assignment which states:
Quote:
Imagine you belong to a professional group who, as part of their repertoire, present topics of interest and/or concern to the public through public speaking and audio/visual demonstrations

...

...

This collage should provide the listener/viewer with an overview of a theme (or aspects of a theme), experience, image or concern of your choosing."


Now I, in plain terms, suck at English. I have tried very hard and put a lot of effort into things in which I always get returned a 'C' [even when the teacher said "Quite Good" on my first draft, implying at least a B or greater if I fixed up the errors]. I once gota a B+ when a different teacher was marking our orals...

Anyway, I couldn't think of anything but it said to "Select a topic that interests you" and I immediately thought of Religion, well anti-religion. This seemed a bit negative so I change my idea to Atheism. I would talk about the advantages of Atheism and why one shouldn't be blinded by faith. The big thing though is that my teacher is an open Christian! She doesn't like me and I don't like her so I thought "Why the hell not?" I asked her and she said it would not be relevant. I'm sorry, is the way we view and act in our world not considered an "interest and/or concern to the public"?

I am thinking of stilling doing it despite what she said but I would like to hear what you guys thought on the topic... or if you had any alternative ideas? haha...

Oh also I would need 2 pieces of poetry, do any of you know of some great poems which promote critical thinking or atheism? I will google this, but if you have any favourites that'd be great too.

So what do you all think?

First:

I think your teacher is correct, regardless of her religious orientation. The key phrase of your assignment is "... a professional group..." not "... present topics of interest and/or concern to the public..."

To the best of my knowledge, Atheists do not present well as a "professional group" since there seems to be no such thing as a "Professional Atheist;" that is, someone who makes their living presenting Atheism as a topic of interest to the public.

In spite of the (somewhat uncommon) belief that Atheism is a religion, there is no Atheist Church, and there are no Church of Atheism Ministers.

True, there are perhaps leaders of religious groups that are closet Atheists, but the are not paid by their congregants to spread the word of a godless universe.

Second:

You seem to be looking for a loophole in the assignment that will enable you to turn in a mediocre effort for a mediocre grade. Don't be satisfied with the easy path. A grade of "C" is no source of pride, as it only means "Average." If another teacher will give you a higher grade for the same work, then it's because the second teacher's standards are lower than the first, and he/she would be doing you no favors as your teacher. To learn, you must be challenged. The first teacher is a challenge, the second teacher is less of one.

However, if you want the easy path, then why not simply request a transfer to the slack teacher's class, and stop risking a lower grade by arguing with a teacher whose standards are set higher than most.

Third:

You object to your teacher being an open Christian. Would you rather that she would have stayed "in the closet"? Perhaps everyone with an objectionable lifestyle should keep it to themselves, just to make you happy.

Yes, the reasons for her not liking you are not relevant. She teaches English, not Ethics of Philosophy.

So you think that the the way we view and act in our world should be considered an "... interest and/or concern to the public." Then how are your views and actions of interest and concern to the public? Remember, the assignment is to "... provide the listener/viewer with an overview of a theme (or aspects of a theme), experience, image or concern of your choosing," as a member of a professional group.

Not as an in-your-face emo punk who wants the world to know that a certain teacher (who just happens to be a Christian) is picking on him. Because of this alone, you should not expect anyone here to take tour side in this one-sided argument. Nor should you expect your teacher to be impressed if any one of us does take your side.

Summation:

Get over yourself, knuckle down, do your assignments, and stop trying to to teach the teachers. You are a student. LEARN!
 
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Hi Swifty,

I'm just posting to recommend a poem. It's called "The Consolations of Poetry" and it's by a poet named Jim Crenner. It was published in the April 3, 2000 edition of The New Republic. I couldn't find any other publication of it anywhere so I hope the moderators will let me get away with quoting it in full here:

The Consolations of Poetry

by Jim Crenner

At four, William Blake saw God
in an upstairs window,
and angels in a tree at ten.
With me it's been the other

way around: glory flashes
on the pane and I see sunlight;
wings rustle in the aspens
and I see just the silver under-

sides of wind-tossed leaves.
And whereas Blake considered death
a mere "removing from one room
to another," I know that once

that door slams behind you,
there's no other room, and no
you to remove to it. So
Blake died singing and I won't.

But I don't whine about it either.
As Dr. Johnson said, it's foolish
to confound annihilation, which is
nothing, with the apprehension

of annihilation, which is dreadful.
I love the accidental, meaningless,
and temporary, and so (in case you
couldn't tell), I'm singing now.
 
How about Larkin's Church Going for a poem (extract below, link's to full version):

Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence.

Move forward, run my hand around the font.
From where I stand, the roof looks almost new -
Cleaned, or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
'Here endeth' much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes snigger briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches will fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?
 
Ok so I have an English assignment which states:

Oh also I would need 2 pieces of poetry, do any of you know of some great poems which promote critical thinking or atheism? I will google this, but if you have any favourites that'd be great too.
QUOTE]

What about John Lennons' "Imagine"?

Deb
 

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