Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape Challenge

Reminds me of creationist "challenges."

"Prove me wrong to my own satisfaction and I'll give you money!" Yeah....
 
Reminds me of creationist "challenges."

"Prove me wrong to my own satisfaction and I'll give you money!" Yeah....

I'm usually pretty cynical when it comes to these challenges, but I like that he is offering $2,000 for the 'best' response. I'm curious as to how he's going to determine which is the 'best' however.
 
He expects people to prove an entire book wrong in 1000 words. That's about one typed page, maybe two if you use long words. That's a lot less than most essay contests, and severely stacks the deck against the claimant. Scientific arguments are rarely decided through essay contests; it would for example be difficult to present experimental data to Harris in a way that both explains them to him and convinces him.
 
Dear Sam Harris,

Stop trying to repackage Welfare Utilitarianism as your own hyped up, novel creation.

Thank you,
Tsukasa Buddha
 
My refutation would be that, if he were right, societies should be tending towards some sort of mean. But, they're not and they haven't been.

Feel free to use that. If you win, send me 10%.
 
I think that part of the problem is that he is slippery with his argument, and he is slippery with his challenge here:

Anyone who believes that my case for a scientific understanding of morality is mistaken is invited to prove it in 1,000 words or less. (You must refute the central argument of the book—not peripheral issues.)

A "scientific understanding of morality" is one thing that is relatively uncontroversial, but he claims, from the subtitle and also within the book, that science can determine human values. This is not the same thing.

The trouble is that he uses the distinction between good (desirable) and bad (undesirable) interchangeably with good (morally correct) and evil (immoral), and assumes that everyone else should. Science can, of course, tell us a lot about how to achieve that which is desirable for most people (how to feed more people, how to make life easier etc...) but it cannot tell us what we should do. Harris seems to think he has won the argument by making a sarcastic question-begging remark that if someone doesn't think we should want to not be starving or vomitting then they should not be listened to. But the point is that if I starve to death it may be bad for me, but it doesn't mean that it is evil.
 
What's this weird stipulation on the official rules page?

For any Canadian selected entrant(s), before being declared a winner of a prize, he/she will be required to correctly answer a time limited mathematical skill testing question without mechanical or other aid (failing which the selected entrant(s) will not be eligible to win a prize.)

http://www.samharris.org/includes/general_page/13511
 
Yup. I wrote my first draft today. It's about 1300 words, but I can trim it down.

I do not think for a femtosecond that I will win any money from Harris, but the possibility of irritating him for a bit is appealing.
 
What's this weird stipulation on the official rules page?



http://www.samharris.org/includes/general_page/13511


I believe it has to do with our laws concerning contests:

The Canadian Competition Act bans all games of chance, with the exception of provincial lotteries and those held at licensed casinos. Contest officials figured out long ago that if they require a correct answer to a tricky question as part of their entry, their sweepstakes is no longer considered a game of chance.

Even though the Canadian government isn’t too sticky about the rule, they do draw the line at “no brainer”-type questions, like “What is your birthday?”, and they also require that math questions contain at least three operations and must be solved without using any calculating devices. Most contests have you solve a basic equation, such as “What is (5 X 4) -10?”

http://mentalfloss.com/article/51391/why-do-canadian-contestants-have-answer-skill-testing-question


/derail
 
Is anyone considering entering this?

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-moral-landscape-challenge1

What do we think of Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape?

This TED talk briefly summarizes his argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

There's over 50 pages here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170759&highlight=harris

Here is one of the things I said about one 'plank' of his argument (slightly edited for clarity):

Harris' 'objective basis for morality' argument is flawed. He imagines the 'worst possible misery for everyone' as providing an objective basis for moral knowledge. Yet there is a problem with this:

1. Even if we could understand what the 'worst possible misery for everyone' universe looked like (which we do not), there would be no action that would be universally 'worst miserable' for everyone. The worst possible misery would be slightly different for everyone, depending on what they subjectively found worst miserable.

2. Therefore we can draw no legitimate moral knowledge from this supposed 'objective' basis for moral knowledge, even if we accepted Harris' axiom about well-being. What objective moral laws or truths can we draw from a situation that provides only the subjective knowledge that this or that scenario is worst miserable for this or that person? The example is self-defeating. It shouldn't be surprising that when we check out this supposed objective basis for moral knowledge we only find a mirror of the subjective disagreements concerning morality.

On page 39 of TLM Harris says:

Quote:
"It is safe to begin with the premise that it is good to avoid behaving in such a way as to produce the worst possible misery for everyone"

This premise is meaningless and useless. For a start we do not know what the worst possible misery universe for each person is, so we cannot know how to avoid behaving in such a way as to avoid it for 'everyone'. It is a useless place to start, unless we wish to defer doing morality for who-knows how long.

Also, even if we did know what the worst possible misery for each person was and this was practically avoidable, this would be different for every individual, so in moving every individual away from their worst possible misery, we would be able to gain precisely no moral knowledge of the kind that Sam Harris would like, whereby we can scientifically tell the Taliban they are bad. We cannot move from moving everyone away from their own worst misery, to anywhere else. Harris' argument of 'worst possible misery' actually ends up being an argument for moral relativism.

There is also another massive problem for Harris which magnifies all his other problems. Harris says that the well-being of conscious creatures must be the basis for deciding values. Yet he does not seem to provide a working definition of what consciousness entails or a justification of his definition as a dividing line in terms of well being. If we assume that Harris has a broad definition in mind, simply ‘the capacity to feel well-being or otherwise’, we must include the well-being of all conscious creatures in the entire universe into our ‘worst possible misery for everyone’ formula. If it wasn’t bad enough already, perhaps if we start removing Harris' anthropocentric arguments and replace the words ‘human’ and everyone’ with ‘all conscious creatures in the universe’, we can see how distorted, truly subjective and meaningless his supposed objective basis for morality becomes. We have to start wondering what the worst possible misery for individual tadpoles looks like, if they have the capacity to feel pain and how much tadpole worst possible misery equals one human worst possible misery, (if we presume that all human worst possible misery is an equal amount of misery, which is almost certainly either meaningless, undecidable or wrong). As anyone should see, this is only going to lead to truths of the most subjective kind.

To which I would add, the most simple and logical conclusion from Harris' moral system is vegetarianism. Harris is not a vegetarian...
 
Which is stupid because this is a loophole to bypass rules about games of chance, of which an essay contest most certainly isn't...


Good point.

Maybe Harris just feels that an innumerate Canadian winning the contest would be the worst possible misery for everyone.
 
Yup. I wrote my first draft today. It's about 1300 words, but I can trim it down.

I do not think for a femtosecond that I will win any money from Harris, but the possibility of irritating him for a bit is appealing.
emphasis mine

Reduce it to 1010 words then tie him up for weeks on end arguing that his word count is wrong.
 

Which is stupid because this is a loophole to bypass rules about games of chance, of which an essay contest most certainly isn't...

Thanks for the explanation.

Anyway, I am looking forward to reading some of the essays. I think that those that Mr. Harris chooses not to publish should be published here, if possible. Unless, of course, there are very prestigous journals out there that are longing to publish rebuttals of his ground-breaking work.

It seemed to be suggested in a previous thread that David Hume rebutted Sam Harris a good 250-260 years ago with this one:

"But can there be any difficulty in proving, that vice and virtue are not matters of fact, whose existence we can infer by reason? Take any action allow'd to be vicious: Wilful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice. In which-ever way you take it, you find only certain passions, motives, volitions and thoughts. There is no other matter of fact in the case. The vice entirely escapes you, as long as you consider the object. You never can find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, towards this action. Here is a matter of fact; but 'tis the object of feeling, not reason. It lies in yourself, not in the object."

David Hume, from A Treatise on Human Nature

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220996&highlight=harris+hume
 

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