• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Request for Help re 911 Debunking

SezMe

post-pre-born
SezMe
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
25,183
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
As mentioned here, I was able to get a half hour on a local radio station to debunk a local talk show host regarding 911 conspiracies. I got notification that I would be on the air late last Friday and the show went live at 1:30 pm on the next day!

I was really concerned that I would flub the whole thing since I had, essentially, no time to prepare. But the host really did not have much of an argument and gave me mostly low-hanging fruit that I was able to answer. After the on-air session, I sent him some links to refute some of the issues that were left open and I assumed that that was the end of the story.

But he responded by asking me to come back next Saturday (Dec. 30th) for another session. He admitted that he was caught off guard by my assertions (thanks to all of you here) and said he was going to do his homework.

In response, I think I have to be far more prepared for the next session. Thus, this thread is intended to help me prepare. I've got onlyt 6 days to get my sh** together to make sure I can refute his every turn. But I do not have the time to read all the (literally) thousands of posts to assemble all the facts.

Here are my opening questions:
1. One of the threads in this section mentioned a document that somebody (sorry, I don't remember who) had put together that contained a nice summary of the 911 facts. Can someone point me to this document?

2. The host emphasized the lack of response by the military and I expect this to come up again. Is there a section of one of our threads that deals with this matter or an external link that might help me. Note, I've consumed the Snopes and Popular Mechanics sites. I have not read the NIST reports but my sense is that the level of detail those reports cover would go over the host's head. And the audience?

3. Do you REAL pros (Gravy, Macky, et. al.) have any other summary documents that you can send/refer me to that will help me prepare in the next few days? I will spend a lot of my free time over the next few days reviewing the LC threads here but any help to focus my attention would be appreciated.


While the local station is owned by Clear Channel, their web site does not appear to have a streaming link so only local forumites (42 and Christophora (yikes)) can listen in.

TIA for any suggestions you might have.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, Peep. I'll pursue your links.

BTW, I thought I'd add what I thought was the silliest argument that the host presented. He offered the fact that Corey Lidle's plane did not bring down the building it hit was evidence that the WTC towers could not have been brought down by the planes that hit them. HUH????
 
Ooooooh! Ooooooh! Let me! Let me show I've been paying attention here at JREF!

Force = mass x acceleration. Lidle's plane was a small four-seater traveling at cruising speed, while the planes that hit the Towers were airliners traveling at Vmax or very close to it. I'm smart enough to know that I can't do the comparative math, but I'd be willing to guess that the energy imparted to the Towers by the airliners exceeded the energy imparted to the Lenox Hill building by Lidle's plane by a factor of 100. R. Mackey or Anti-sophist, to name two, could do the math and give you an exact figure.

Not to mention that a 767 probably carries 10 times the fuel Lidle's plane did, and that spread through the Towers causing further damage, weakening of steel, and so on, which led to the Towers' collapse.

Comparing those two events is comparing apples and oranges.
 
Last edited:
Major lies of Loose Change

For an excellent list, try the "major lies of Loose Change" which the Screw Loose Change blog has done--succinct rebuttals to many Truther memes. The list can be found at the four links listed below. A sample:

17. Claim: WTC 7, a 47 story office building 300 feet away from the North Tower, suddenly collapsed for no reason.

Truth: There was nothing sudden about it. The building was hit by falling debris from one of the towers, was missing much of one corner, had a huge hole in the middle and was on fire for hours. The building had started leaning and making creaking noises so fire department officials ordered the evacuation of the area over an hour earlier. Source and here
Click to expand...
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-of-loose.html
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-of-loose_15.html
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-in-loose.html
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-in-loose_17.html
 
Last edited:
Whatever you do, don't try to memorize everything. Make yourself some nice 3x5 cards with all of the possible arguments. When the host mentions one, you just look at the card and refresh your memory.

Also, get good at giving people websites to go to for more information - 911myths, screwloosechange, etc.

And be sure to point out to the host how unfair it is to expect one person to be an expert on structural engineering, building codes, airplane mechanics, civil air defense, politics, insurance, etc. No prosecutor would go to trial with just one expert witness for all those fields and he shouldn't judge things based on one person's ability to argue either.
 
Don't let them move the goalposts, make them stick to one subject at a time.

Good luck SezMe! :)
 
More the fuel, I think

jhunter1163 said:
Ooooooh! Ooooooh! Let me! Let me show I've been paying attention here at JREF!

Force = mass x acceleration. Lidle's plane was a small four-seater traveling at cruising speed, while the planes that hit the Towers were airliners traveling at Vmax or very close to it. I'm smart enough to know that I can't do the comparative math, but I'd be willing to guess that the energy imparted to the Towers by the airliners exceeded the energy imparted to the Lenox Hill building by Lidle's plane by a factor of 100. R. Mackey or Anti-sophist, to name two, could do the math and give you an exact figure.

Not to mention that a 767 probably carries 10 times the fuel Lidle's plane did, and that spread through the Towers causing further damage, weakening of steel, and so on, which led to the Towers' collapse.

Comparing those two events is comparing apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

More the fuel, I'd think. After all it was mostly the fire, weakening the steel, which caused the collapse.
 
Severian said:
More the fuel, I'd think. After all it was mostly the fire, weakening the steel, which caused the collapse.
Click to expand...

Likely true, but the removal of the columns by the impact definitely compromised the building's structural integrity. Would they have stood if the fuel hadn't weakened the remaining columns? Maybe so, but that's another one of those advanced maths that I'm not good at.
 
jhunter1163 said:
Likely true, but the removal of the columns by the impact definitely compromised the building's structural integrity. Would they have stood if the fuel hadn't weakened the remaining columns? Maybe so, but that's another one of those advanced maths that I'm not good at.
Click to expand...


Also I doubt a light aircraft would have the mass or velocity to strip the steel of fireproofing - another key ingredient in the WTC collapse. And then, did this building have the truss system used in WTC, which was ultimately the mechanism of collapse?

You're right. Apples and Oranges.

-Gumboot
 
Make sure you use gumboots NORAD timeline and nothing else about response times. Anything about the response before the NORAD tapes were released is almost certainly inaccurate.
 
I'd also suggest getting a few of your own questions in order. Ask about what type of demolition brought the towers down. If he says thermite, talk about how much thermite would be needed. If he says conventional explosives, talk about how someone would apply them.

If he suggests C4 coated rebar, laugh.
 
And on NORAD - watch for the Payne Stewart gambit.

Often it is claimed that the plane was intercepted within 10 to 20 minutes. However they fail to notice the time change to Central Time, which extends the delay out to over an hour.

Oh and on the Towers - it is important to note the outer facade actually was part of the load bearing system of the building. So the simple act of breaching the external wall with the planes weakened the structure beyond design specifications.

This is important, because in most buildings the external facade is only for decoration, and it is the frame that creates the load bearing. So on a normal building, flying a plane in like that would not be so critical.

Finally the Pentagon. One of the biggest lies is the time the pilot had to line up the building for the hit. Some say 300 to 500 feet. However the real distance is close to two miles
 
SezMe said:
Thanks, Peep. I'll pursue your links.

BTW, I thought I'd add what I thought was the silliest argument that the host presented. He offered the fact that Corey Lidle's plane did not bring down the building it hit was evidence that the WTC towers could not have been brought down by the planes that hit them. HUH????
Click to expand...

That's just plain nuts.

It sounds like someone who has been on killtowns site. Of course, KT seems to think the CL plane crash was faked...:eye-poppi
 
In addition to the good advice above, there's a good list (with links) of many of the conspiracist claims on the internet detectives page. It's specific to Loose Change, but covers a lot. http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

I had made my own list of major claims in Loose Change a while back:
  • U.S. air defenses were ordered to “stand down” on 9/11 in order to allow the attacks to succeed.
  • Prior to 9/11 the rules of engagement were changed to require permission from the Secretary of Defense before shooting down a threatening aircraft.
  • An unusual number of war games were deliberately held on 9/11 to occupy and confuse potential defenders.
  • Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon. No Boeing 757 wreckage or human remains were recovered and identified there. It disappeared and no one knows the whereabouts of the plane or its passengers. The Pentagon was probably struck by a smaller military plane or a missile.
  • Flight 93 did not crash in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania after its passengers tried to storm the cockpit. No aircraft wreckage and human remains were recovered and identified there. Instead, flight 93 landed safely in Cleveland where its passengers were removed and presumably killed. That plane may have contained not only flight 93’s passengers, but all the passengers from the other three planes as well. The actual plane, tail number N591UA, was still in use as of 2003.
  • None of the many calls made by passengers on the hijacked aircraft were real. All the calls were perfectly faked by the conspirators using “voice-morphing” technology. The fakes occurred in real time as events unfolded, and were good enough to fool all the relatives of the “alleged” callers. (in recut, revised to claiming cell phone calls couldn't have happened.)
  • At least 9 of the alleged hijackers were still alive after 9/11.
  • al Qaeda had no role in the attacks. A video of bin Laden admitting his involvement was faked.
  • World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7 were destroyed by pre-planted explosive devices. Additional explosive devices blew up in the Twin Towers prior to the demolition charges going off. The towers did not collapse due to structural damage and fire caused by the aircraft striking them. Fires were not severe in the towers. WTC 7 sustained slight structural damage and fires.
  • One of the cleanup contractors at the WTC, Controlled Demolitions Inc., may have been involved in the WTC’s destruction, as well as in the bombing of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City in 1995. CDI executed an “unexplained” demolition of two 400-foot gas tanks in NYC in June, 2001.
  • No inspection was allowed of WTC debris. New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani ordered all potential evidence to be removed from the site.
  • Investors with advance knowledge of 9/11 made millions in the stock market.
  • A document produced by prominent Neocons in 2000 called for a “New Pearl Harbor.”
  • Prominent U.S. politicians and military personnel avoided air travel on and before 9/11.
  • Larry Silverstein, leaseholder of the World Trade Center, profited by over-insuring his buildings.
  • George W. Bush’s brother Marvin ran WTC security operations.
  • $166.8 billion in gold was stolen from the vaults beneath the World Trade Center. (revised to $1 billion in recut)
  • No real investigation of the causes of the attacks was done.
These are from the flyer I hand out at Ground Zero:
  • Evidence shows that the U.S. Government was complicit in the 9/11 attacks....FALSE
  • Evidence shows that the U.S. military was ordered to let the attacks happen....FALSE
  • Evidence shows that explosives brought down the WTC buildings....FALSE
  • The towers collapsed at "free fall" speed....FALSE
  • Inspectors were not allowed to examine steel from the WTC....FALSE
  • WTC building 7 did not suffer severe damage or fires....FALSE
  • The collapse of WTC building 7 was unexpected....FALSE
  • The damage to the Pentagon was too small to have been made by a 757....FALSE
  • No wreckage or remains from flight 77 were found at the Pentagon....FALSE
  • The hijacker pilots could not have flown those airliners....FALSE
  • Several of the 9/11 hijackers are still alive....FALSE
  • Evidence shows that Osama bin Laden's "Confession tape" was faked....FALSE
  • Stock traders with foreknowledge of 9/11 made millions in criminal profits....FALSE
  • In 2000, prominent Neo-cons called for a "New Pearl Harbor"....FALSE
  • Every war since 1848 was the result of a staged provocation....FALSE
  • The "9/11 Truth Movement" relies on fact, evidence, and honesty....FALSE
A few not shown here are the Pakistan ISI funding claim, the Able Danger claim (discussed here in the past couple of days), the "molten steel" under the piles claim, Steven Jones/thermate, remote control of planes, advance warning from other nations about an attack, oh, and about a thousand others.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom