Religious Paradox

[Bazza]

Most Christians say that a true belief in a Christian God will see them to heaven (Good works alone won't do it - you have to have the belief!)

So I ask them:

Q. What about the Muslim? Is he going to hell?

A. Yes - he had the chance to believe & he didn't take the true belief.

Q. What if the Muslim is right & you're wrong? Are you happy with eternity on the bunsen burner on the basis that you chose the wrong "true belief"?

A. But I'm not wrong!!

Q. What about the poor 6 year old Muslim boy who has only vaguely heard of Chritianity & if he professed a belief in it he would be disowned & put on the streets. Assume this lad is hit by a truck & killed at 6 years old while he is a Muslim believer. Would God make an exception for this poor lad and give him his 2 square metres & polished harp? Isn't God about forgiveness & love?

A. Usually silence!!! - yes god would make an exception.... but

Q. OK at what age can you get to before you have to be a true christian? 10yrs 15yrs. What about children that die at 1 year old in a Muslim country? Are they going to hell?

By this point you realise that the Christian hasn't thought how a simple believe in a christian God & you will go to heaven rule can be applied in a complex world.

When you get on to the issue of - You are born into a Christian country & have infinitely more chance of getting to a Christian heaven than the poor Iranian, and did God make the Iranian be born in his country or is your birthplace a chance like lottery then you have them totally baffled. Anyone else with experiences in this line of questioning?

 

[arcticpenguin]

Most Christians say that a true belief in a Christian God will see them to heaven (Good works alone won't do it - you have to have the belief!)

I believe there's actually a fair amount of dissention on that in the Christian camp, and you can certainly find Bible quotes to support the primacy of either good works or faith.

 

[swstephe]

observations from college ...

I used to ride the bus to school ever day. On that bus, there were a group of developmentally challanged people, (I'll call them "special" just to save space). Every couple of weeks, some evangelical would start "witnessing" through the standard script and the "special" person would become "saved". They would get invited out and treated really well as a new Christian for about a month or so, until the church they were going to lost interest ... then they would repeat the sequence all over for the next one to come along. I guess they had the system all worked out. Convert and get a lot of attention for a while. They had actually outsmarted the missionaries!

Another thing I observed is that, while they were pretty functionally socially, they really didn't get the religious concepts at all. They just knew to nod and look interested in it and throw out the right buzzwords to look like they knew what was going on. At the time, it became a kind of turning point for me. From a missionary's point of view, these were adult people who could never be "saved" because they couldn't understand what they were supposed to believe in. They knew what "sin" was, but they didn't have a clue about "redemption" or "salvation" or Jewish history or anything. They were about the same level as elementary school students, (actually it was quite refreshing that they never became "jaded" adults). That got me thinking, from the missionary point of view. Can someone believe something they don't understand conceptually? Can I believe in "blarg" if I don't know what "blarg" is? If not, then you have an entire class of people who couldn't be genuinely saved because they were incapable of the act required for their salvation. It led me to realize that the act of "belief", which requires intelligence, is itself a "work" that the missionary-types were so afraid of.

 

[Dancing David]

Hmmm, that is what you call an issue of informed consent , which is usually an issue involving medical treatment but it does work for religous conversions as well.

say that person A sells thier sould to the devil:
will the heavenly court decide factors such as
a. they already have a guardian of estate?
b. through developmental disability or mental illness they are not 'legally competant'?
c. they have already sigened a durable power of attorney, which has been activated
d. there is an atmosphere of coersion?

And then conversly what if you convert to C-dom in the same situation. Hmmmm......

 

[Iamme]

Bazza---There is no paradox.

It's true that believing in God will get you into heaven and that 'it' is not based on good works (alone).

Here is the catch...and why it's not a parodox: It is the CHRISTIAN faith that tells us that by believing in JESUS as your savior, will entitle you to the gates of heaven.

Believeing in God is not good enough, for it says in the Bible that even the devil and his angels believe in God!. No...you have to believe that Jesus died for your sins.

Muslims aren't Christian.

No parodox.

The orthodox Jew can't go to heaven either!...according to the Christian faith. They don't believe in the New testament. They don't believe Jesus came yet.

Now, the Muslims could still think they are going to heaven. But Christians don't think they are...from what I said.

If we all get to go to heaven by just believing in God...and Jesus has nothing to do with it? Then, how sad, for humanity, and all our needless religious turmoils, eh?

 

[Bazza]

To Iamme

What about the 6 year old Muslim that is kiiled? If he had little education about Jesus & didn't receive 'the message' does God make an allowance for him? How could he ever have made an informed choice?

And what if the Koran is the correct book & you haven't followed the correct way - are you happy that you could spend eternity in Hell?

Seems like a hell of a Paradox to me. As usual your statement that "Í have the right belief - the others are wrong' is all part of the religious turmoil.

If you're not a Jehovah's witness they reckon you're going to hell with everyone else. They swear they are right & you are wrong.

And you say there's no Paradox - sorry junior you're going downstairs - you chose the wrong religion!!!

 

[Yahzi]

Isn't God about forgiveness & love?

Where did you get that idea?

God is about power. Power. The God of OT is not good or just, he is powerful. The Jews of the OT weren't interested in forgiveness or love, they were interested in land, slaves, and women.

These crazy Christians invented this whole spin doctor thing. Kinda like how corporations are all trying to paint themselves green without actually impinging on their profits.

 

[plindboe]

lamme,

the paradox is that people born in non-christian countries very rarely become christian, while people born in christian countries, very often become christian. The thing is, God decides where everyone gets born, so he have in fact already more or less sentenced you to Heaven or Hell, before you are even born.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

Believeing in God is not good enough, for it says in the Bible that even the devil and his angels believe in God!. No...you have to believe that Jesus died for your sins.

I seem to recall from my time as a cult member that there was at least one passage in the book which tell us that satan tried to get Jesus to throw himself off a cliff during his 40 days and nights in the desert stating something to the effect of; "You are the son of god, cast yourself from this precipice an will not an angle catch you and stop your fall?"

That would seem to me to prove that the devil also belives in Jesus, which would mean that he would also believe that it was the big J's destiny to die for the sins of man (since that is what he was trying to prevent by having Jesus commit suicide.)

Yet the Lightbringer is still not allowed in heaven.

Doesn't seem quite fair to me. He's following all the rules.

 

[ReasonableDoubt]

the paradox is that people born in non-christian countries very rarely become christian, while people born in christian countries, very often become christian. The thing is, God decides where everyone gets born, so he have in fact already more or less sentenced you to Heaven or Hell, before you are even born.

Not nice, but hardly a "paradox". In fact, it is perfectly consistent with the God of the OT.

 

[Iamme]

Hi Bazza---I am not going to argue with your points. The part about the 6 year old? Exactly. You're right! That's why many people believe that it's all a bunch of huey. There are too many of these scenarios like you point out, that can't be answered very well. Oh, they try to. They'll say stuff like God knows everything, and that all little kids go to heaven. Stuff like that. But such an answer as that begs one to ask, "If God knows everything, then why does he allow bad people to live..to influence others." Or, "If he allows young children into heaven, because they didn't have the opportunity to learn all about Jeseus properly...then wouldn't it be more humane of God to allow everyone to die in childhood so that we would all get to heaven, rather than be cursed to hell for all eternity for the errors in judgements we made as an adult?" The whole premise is scewball. Period. Unfortunately.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

Re: observations from college ...

Snip...

Can someone believe something they don't understand conceptually? Can I believe in "blarg" if I don't know what "blarg" is? If not, then you have an entire class of people who couldn't be genuinely saved because they were incapable of the act required for their salvation. It led me to realize that the act of "belief", which requires intelligence, is itself a "work" that the missionary-types were so afraid of.

Puts a whole new spin on the creation/evolution debate (if you can even call it one), which seems to consit of misinformed of misinformed strawman attacks (e.g. hovind), unverifyable, poorly constructed and flimsy "theories" (e.g. ID) and just plain lies (e.g. Hovind again). It's hard to "believe" in evolution. True comprehension of the theory is hard, it becomes complicated stuff (obviously a subjective assertion).

Perhaps that's another difference between science and evangelical christianity (I would say religion, but I hate blanket statements). One requires faith, at least to a certain extent, but the other requires understanding.