Religion trumps Science?!?!?

Antiquehunter

Degenerate Gambler
Antiquehunter
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050810....sQ.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


(Excerpt)

"Reuters Health - Many US doctors believe that the religious convictions of their patients should outweight their professional advice when it comes to making certain medical decisions...Overall, 23 percent of physicians said that religion had a negative effect on healthcare, 30 percent said it had a neglible effect, and 47 percent said religion had a positive effect"

Hmm... questions that spring to mind...

- How does one make sure that your quack is in the 23 percent category or at least in the 30 percent category (the placebo effect could arguably be a neglible effect I s'pose)

- If 47 percent say that religion has a positive effect, shouldn't they be in a priesthood of some kind rather than being medical practitioners?!?!?

Scary stuff...

-Oke
 
(excerpt)

"These findings and others come from a survey of 794 physicians nationwide who answered various questions about religion and its effect on healthcare in the United States in an August poll."

...

""Something's happening in the power relationship between physicians and patients," according to Dr. Arthur J. Kover, a management fellow at Yale University's School of Management and a consultant with HCD Research, the New Jersey-based market research company that conducted the poll."

-Oke
 
" Something's happening in the power relationship between physicians and patients," according to Dr. Arthur J. Kover, a management fellow at Yale University's School of Management and a consultant with HCD Research, the New Jersey-based market research company that conducted the poll."


Absolutely right. We no longer think doctors are gods. This may be due to the internet; to the popular image of the doctor in the media , (which has gone from "Trustworthy elderly gentleman with black bag", through "Well coiffed middle aged professional" to "Self important jerk on the golf course ") , or just to the expense of modern medicine and the remoteness of it's practitioners.
Meanwhile, along comes a "crystal therapist" who listens to your nonsense, holds your hand, tells you it's gonna be fine and reintegrates your chakra by manipulation of your orgone fibrillator. (TM)

Now who would YOU go to with your chronic sinusitis?
 
Soapy Sam said:

Now who would YOU go to with your chronic sinusitis?
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Well, Soapy, you know the answer for you and me, and many others on this board. It is neither. Jumping into bed with a crystal therapist is the same as jumping into be with the doc as far as the "from authority" fallacies go. As far as the probability of doc being right versus mr. crystal, the docs, in general, are more reliable. Personally, I keep cross-checking each doc's statements when I have the opportunity. If I have a lacerated artery, however, I am in the emergency room and at their hands. I am not cross-checking as they intervene. How many of these woos woiuld go to the acupuncturist for this? Almost zero. The others follow the darwinian model of natural selection.
 
This is based on the (false) assumption that religion offers "spiritual consolation", while science cant. I believe this is a mistake. One can be extremely spiritual and at the same time have a scientific perspective regarding reality, without involving any sort of religious believe.
 
Bodhi Dharma Zen said:
One can be extremely spiritual and at the same time have a scientific perspective regarding reality, without involving any sort of religious believe.
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But what on Earth does "spiritual" mean? I've never understood the term.
 
Good point. It is a very difficult word (out of the religious specific context). Please dont take this as other than my particular view:

The "spiritual" thing about the world is its mystery, the thing that you feel when you contemplate something that you cant fully grasp nor understand, to be the pasive (or sometimes active) spectator of the whole set of experiences available to a sentient being.

This feeling of astonishment, of being able to enjoy the existence, and having a profound respect for everything, is what I would call "spiritual".
 
(why is that we cant delete our own posts? I dont understand)

sorry for the inconvenience, double post.
 
I don't think those (47%) doctors need to be priest.
- They could be your more warm and compassionate doctors, where they respect what makes you feel good. Doctors aren't supposed to be mechanical diagnostic robots.


What is "certain medical decision" , as quoted in the OP?

Different situation needs different decisions.
Sometimes it is better to leave the decision to the patient.
If you are beyond help and are about to die, I suppose it is better to die in peace, happily and full of "spiritual bliss" (what ever that means to the individual).

I'm quite sure that for "certain medical decision", almost 100% of the doctor will agree that religion conviction has negligible effect.


The article also include this...
"When it comes to making healthcare decisions for children, however, nearly 84 percent of doctors agreed that a physician's medical decision should not be overridden by the religious beliefs of a child's guardian."

This is a strong indication a good sense of discretion in most of our doctors.

For a fatal illness that can only be cured by a god, almost 100% of the cases result in death.

Miracle is rare, so how effective are the gods.
 
This is OK... if someone's beliefs forbid them from whatever medicine, that's their choice. I'm not saying the doctor shouldn't advise against it, but if someone wants to skip their pills and croaks, well... 1 less fool in the world.

(Side note: I used - in less anti-religious days- to date a Jehovah's Witness who wouldn't accept a transfusion, but took prescription hormone pills - derived from horse serum I think- every day. I never told her HOW they make the pills, for fear she's stop taking 'em and die.

Oh, if she was in an accident, yes I'd tell 'em to give her blood... better mad and alive than righteously dead!)
 
Okay, medical advice comes from professionals, people who have had years of training, who are required by law to be well informed about what processes go on inside the human body, as opposed to some preist telling you "You can't have a colostomy because the evil doctors will suck the soul out your butt with a giant vacuum cleaner, so it's better to leave it alone and let God take care of you!"

Okay, so nobody believes exactly that, but religion is a notoriously bad source for informed decisions.
 
c4ts said:
Okay, medical advice comes from professionals, people who have had years of training, who are required by law to be well informed about what processes go on inside the human body, as opposed to some preist telling you "You can't have a colostomy because the evil doctors will suck the soul out your butt with a giant vacuum cleaner, so it's better to leave it alone and let God take care of you!"

Okay, so nobody believes exactly that, but religion is a notoriously bad source for informed decisions.
Click to expand...

The reason I initially posted the article for discussion was simply to point out that an alarming number of doctors appear to ascribe some powers to woo. It had never occurred to me to ask my GP what his thoughts were on religion affecting a patient - but I definitely will now. I go to my doctor to have a symptom relieved and/or to get made well again. If I felt that a religious belief was the best way to cure my sniffles or fix my broken leg, I'd see a priest.

What I did find interesting was that doctors reported a significantly higher reluctance to 'play god' with children. Does this indicate some latent skepticism about the efficacy of religion?
 
Originally posted by Antiquehunter The reason I initially posted the article for discussion was simply to point out that an alarming number of doctors appear to ascribe some powers to woo.
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How can one deny that woo has power? Not that it has the power that adherents claim, but clearly Christianity has had wide ranging effects on medicine.

What I did find interesting was that doctors reported a significantly higher reluctance to 'play god' with children. Does this indicate some latent skepticism about the efficacy of religion?
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I don't see any reason to make this deduction. With adults, the wishes of the patients should almost always take precedence, regardless of their reasons. Children, on the other hand, are not competent to make some decisions.
 
Aside from folks who don't believe in proper medical treatment, religiosity might be weakly correlated with healthier behavior.
 
Art Vandelay said:
How can one deny that woo has power? Not that it has the power that adherents claim, but clearly Christianity has had wide ranging effects on medicine.
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Positive effects? How so? I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer. I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?

I don't see any reason to make this deduction. With adults, the wishes of the patients should almost always take precedence, regardless of their reasons. Children, on the other hand, are not competent to make some decisions.
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The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound.

A child needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Parent states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather my child's fate is in the hands of god'. 84% of doctors say that in this case the child should have the transfusion.

Why the dichotomy? Either its a sound decision to put one's faith in god or its not. This is a fairly extreme example I realize. My point is that it looks like 27% of doctors are willing to shrug and say OK - good luck with your god thing when its an adult, but scurry back to the scientific method when a child's life hangs in danger. (And also that 16% of doctors appear to be bozos.)
 
Antiquehunter said:
Positive effects? How so? I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer. I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?
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AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.

For more effects of woo, look at the international anti-vax campaigns, or the outlandish claims about HIV recently made by certain African leaders.

May the woo be with you.

[edited to add:

Oy! How could I forget the simplest example of all. Just sneeze in public. On the street, in the office, at the library, coffee shop or your favorite pub.

What does everybody say?

Uh-huh.

Where does that tradition come from?

Uh-huh.

'Nuff said.]
 
BillHoyt said:
AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.

For more effects of woo, look at the international anti-vax campaigns, or the outlandish claims about HIV recently made by certain African leaders.

May the woo be with you.

[edited to add:

Oy! How could I forget the simplest example of all. Just sneeze in public. On the street, in the office, at the library, coffee shop or your favorite pub.

What does everybody say?

Uh-huh.

Where does that tradition come from?

Uh-huh.

'Nuff said.]
Click to expand...

Why does it matter whether or not a doctor is religious ?

About the HIV thing ...
a friend of mine has this tape about Freemasons.
It mentions that studies were performed on HIV which showed that it was highly unlikely that it mutated from a similar virus in monkeys. It says that in the 1970s the increase in third world populations and the reduction of the European and North American white populations was threatening Masonic Supremacy and HIV was genetically engineered in an attempt to control these third world populations.

It said other stuff about ID cards to check up on people and hidden messages in the media to manipulate people. It said that certain songs by artists such as Madonna and the Eagles when played backwords have a hidden message regarding Satan.

It also mentioned conflict of the freemasons and a one eyed Jewish antichrist against muslims. It also mentioned hidden masonic symbolism such as the all seeing eye on US currency.
 
jambo372 said:

About the HIV thing ...
a friend of mine has this tape about Freemasons....
Click to expand...

I have a tape about how to speak French.

The difference between my tape and your friend's is that mine is non-fiction.

If you want fiction tapes, I have one about hobbits, too. It's probably much better written than your friend's.
 
new drkitten said:
I have a tape about how to speak French.

The difference between my tape and your friend's is that mine is non-fiction.

If you want fiction tapes, I have one about hobbits, too. It's probably much better written than your friend's.
Click to expand...

Eh, the one all about the elves is better :)

Of course, it's full of creationism stuff, and telepathy, and curses and prophecy too...
 
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