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Recycling Questions

mooseypops

New Blood
mooseypops
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
23
I hope this is in the right section of the forum - if not, any mod is welcome to please move it to the correct section.

So I watched the episode of Penn & Teller's Bullsh*t where they talked about Recycling. I didn't buy it entirely, but it did raise some questions in my mind. As far as I can see, individual regions are going to have their own programs for recycling and waste disposal, and different standards accordingly. I *am* concerned about the environment, and want to do the right thing, but I don't want to jump headfirst into the recycling(!) bandwagon, just because it makes me feel good.

I have questions for my local authorities about the cost of recycling in our region, and where that recycling goes. I'd like to get a good comprehensive view at this though, and I'm not sure what other questions to be asking them. If (when) they tell me their results, how can I compare this to other areas? I'm in Ontario, Canada if it makes any difference, but I thought this might also be a nice way for anyone else with questions like this to gain some insight.
 
I watched that Penn & Teller episode about recycling. They made good arguments that recycling aluminum makes sense, but recycling paper and plastic is a waste of time and effort, and hurts the environment more than it helps. I figured that recycling advocates would have put well reasoned arguments against this show on the net, but when I did a Google search, I didn't find any. I found bad arguments. They said not to believe Penn & Teller because they are magicians. Saying that an argument is bad because of its source is one of the basic logical fallacies. So I don't recycle now. If anyone knows of a good argument against what Penn & Teller said, let me know where to find it.

--Scott
 
Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure that I follow those arguments. How does recycling paper and plastics end up costing more than recycling aluminium? Why can't paper and plastics be recycled in more cost effective ways? Is it then more cost effective to re-use those papers and plastics? What is the most cost effective way to dispose of those materials?
 
Aluminum

The process of getting aluminum out of rocks takes a lot of electricity. I understand that to collect the used aluminum, haul it to a factory, melt it down, and make it into something new, uses substantially less energy than to make fresh aluminum out of ore.

The people who collect plastic and glass containers for recycling in my neighborhood ask us to clean the containers before we submit them. That means that I have to use up warm, fresh, water from my tap and put soap down my drain. I have heard that that alone uses up energy and water and does more environmental harm than the good that recycling those containers might do. Two garbage trucks come to my home--one for the recycle bins and one for the dumpster. If only one truck came, that would save a lot of petroleum and pollute the air less.

--Scott
 
Well, "reduce, reuse and recycle" are definitely in the preferred order.

I despise those plastic grocery bags that you can only put one or two items in. (And even the recycling bins in the store are always full--so I can't imagine anyone really WANTS to recycle them.) Whenever possible, I use my canvas bags.

Slightly OT, this happened to me just yesterday:

I was on my way somewhere, and I had to stop for something at Walgreen's. The cashier was moving in super slow motion, with a really silly grin on her face. When I finally got to the front of the line, she offered me a photocopy of a paper with "The Lord's Prayer" on it. I said no, and she continued her slow motion check out. Finally, she dropped my 5 smallish items into a plastic bag, and I went to pick it up. She grabbed it away from me, and said she wanted to double bag it. I finally just took it (leaving the second bag) and left. I'm sure she thinks she's morally superior to me because she prays.

Grrr....
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Slightly OT, this happened to me just yesterday:

I was on my way somewhere, and I had to stop for something at Walgreen's. The cashier was moving in super slow motion, with a really silly grin on her face. When I finally got to the front of the line, she offered me a photocopy of a paper with "The Lord's Prayer" on it.
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Are they even allowed to do that?!?! That seems completely inappropriate to me. Isn't she representing Walgreens while she's on shift? I'm so shocked at that.


Back OT, canvas bags are definitely the way to go. At our local grocery store, they have reinforced canvas bags, but only in a very small size, which is frustrating to me. OTOH when I get plastic bags for my groceries, I always save the ones with no holes in and try and reuse them later. The ones with holes in I try and pack as small as possible into my garbage bag. That at least makes me feel better about it, although I am completely aware that I'm pandering to the part of me that wants to feel good about reducing my waste.

What else does anyone do to build on those three R's?
 
Part of the attraction of recycling has always been that it reduces the volume of accumulated waste, and this may remain an attractive option even if it doesn't pay for itself. Obviously it's better if, as with aluminum, we can see a net energy benefit, but energy isn't the only factor.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
She grabbed it away from me, and said she wanted to double bag it.
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Slightly off topic, but it irks me when a cashier ties the inside bag and puts it in another when it's full of heavy items...does the person not realize the bag is under the same strain?

More on topic: My wife and I just moved to Vermont where we are required to recycle. OK. What we are having a hard time adjusting to is the fickle nature of what will and will not be accepted on recycling pickup days. We were told pizza boxes were OK, but then we find out that if there are ANY stains (like there are going to be absolutely none!) they will leave the entire bin untouched. Cereal boxes are just fine but not other pasteboard boxes for frozen food (outer containers only...still not accepted); neither are beer six pack holders acceptable. We could, however, simply travel with our trash, ahem, recyclables, to a county dropoff location and pay a fee to place the recyclables in their appropriate bins. What fun that would be...

Rant Over...I just wish it were less of a hassle. I really don't mind separating the trash, but sheesh!
 
I live in Derbyshire, we get a wheelie bin for general waste (emtied fortnightly), a plastic box (without lid) for glass bottles and another for tins. We then get 2 plastic bags, one for card and one for paper. Plastic is not recycled at all. 6 miles away in Nottinghamshire, they recycle plastic but not paper.

Not having lids on the boxes is a PITA as they fill with rain water making moving them an unpleasant experience. Add to that that the paper of course blows around the street on windy days and the whole thing is largely unsatisfactory.

We compost any uncooked veg, paper and cardboard. Anything cooked or meat goes down the waste disposal. We recylce tins and bottles and burn the rest.
 
Scott Haley said:
Two garbage trucks come to my home--one for the recycle bins and one for the dumpster. If only one truck came, that would save a lot of petroleum and pollute the air less.

--Scott
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I currently live in an area where there is no doorstep collection of recyclables. I take mine down to the recycling points located at local supermarkets. So the collection lorry only makes one collection from a communal point - somewhere people are going to be going anyway.

When I used to live in an area with a doorstep service, the recycling collection replaced the regular rubbish collection on alternate weeks. Therefore there was no extra petrolleum usage or air pollution involved.

I also wash out my plastics during my normal washing up session, along with the rest of the dishes. Therefore not using any extra detergent or hot water.

I am interested, though, if there is any other information available with regards the cost effectiveness of recyling plastics and paper.
 
One day I was buying three small items at the grocery store. The girl put the items in a plastic bag. I said to her. "Oh, I don't need a bag for just three items, I can carry them myself." She then smiled at me, said, "Okay." and took the items out of the bag and promptly tossed the bag in the garbage.
 
bruto said:
Part of the attraction of recycling has always been that it reduces the volume of accumulated waste, and this may remain an attractive option even if it doesn't pay for itself. Obviously it's better if, as with aluminum, we can see a net energy benefit, but energy isn't the only factor.
Click to expand...

This is an important point, and is related to another one. Resources. Paper is a renewable resource. No matter how much paper we throw out, we can grow more trees to make it. Glass is made out of sand. No matter how much glass we fail to recycle, running out of sand is not really a major issue. On the other hand, plastic is almost exclusively made out of oil. It might be cheaper, and even use less energy, to dig up more oil and make plastic, but fairly soon we will run out of oil.

This is something that annoys we from time to time. It seems that every argument made by pretty much anyone, for or against the environment, always ignores at least half of the picture. When it comes to recycling, everyone complains about the energy cost and ignores the waste and supply side of things. When it comes to wind farms, everyone complains about the resources used to build it and ignores the energy benefits. People really need realise that everything is a compromise. If you focus on just one thing that you see as a problem you will only end up causing worse problems in the future.
 
Re: Plastic Baggies

I hang onto them for kitty litter cleanup and little garbage can liners. I also recently made a shopping bag out of the plastic baggies! Being the crafty gal I am, I cut the baggies into strips, strung them together, and crocheted a new, sturdier shopping bag that I take to market.
 
zombiebex said:
Re: Plastic Baggies

I hang onto them for kitty litter cleanup and little garbage can liners. I also recently made a shopping bag out of the plastic baggies! Being the crafty gal I am, I cut the baggies into strips, strung them together, and crocheted a new, sturdier shopping bag that I take to market.
Click to expand...

That'd be the "reuse" part. I do that too, but they still accumulate much faster than I like. I bring my canvas bags most times I go grocery shopping, but if I don't pack them myself, I invariably get half-empty canvas bags, and yet another bunch of plastic bags.

The canvas bags I have are really sturdy and very large. I think most of the people at these stores are trained (brainwashed) into using these plastic bags and putting only 1 or 2 items in each one (and double bagging any item that has weight--what good does it do to put a gallon of milk that comes in a plastic jug with a handle into two plastic bags???).
 
I lived a couple of years in Quito, Ecuador. There was a lot less packaging in general down there, and EVERYTHING got re-used. (The plastic 1 gallon jugs like milk comes in here in the U.S. were sort of a prized commodity.) We were lucky enough to have a fireplace, and it got cold at nights, so we burned just about everything we could burn for heat. If someone was trying to throw away any wood, cardboard or paper (that wasn't of value in its current form), it didn't stay out for long. I got pretty quick at scavenging such things myself.

Most of our "recycling" was done on the spot. Even the little tiny paper tab on a teabag went into our fireplace. (So no energy use to transport the stuff.) We put out a very small bag of trash for the collectors about once or twice a month. On the days we put stuff out, a lot of women would pick through the stuff at the curb looking for anything else with any re-use value. Most of the compost, except the most yucky stuff, was gleaned at this point to be used in urban gardens and for chickens to scratch through. Then the trash guys themselves would come, and their truck had a half dozen or so bins strapped to the outside. I don't think this was sorting stuff out for recycling so much as it was the garbage workers' own private stashes. Once it gets to the landfill, there's actually a coop of landfill "miners". They really pick over what gets dumped.

Sigh. . . it's a different story here in the U.S. for sure.
 
Recycling is garbage.

Wow, this essay makes many of the same points Penn & Teller did, but it was written years before they made their show. Maybe the people who wrote their show read this during the research phase.

--Scott
 
frank462 said:
Here is a very interesting article that I posted in another thread on recycling.
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That is a fascinating article. I've had no reply from my local region, but the responses to this thread have all been very thought provoking so far. I am trying to live a more frugal lifestyle, and apply critical thinking to different aspects of that lifestyle, without being caught in the "corn cob" side of things.


Some Frugal Person said:
One of the extreme tips he thought others might want to try was ahh replacing toilet paper with corn cobs.
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I can't post links, but the address is h ttp://community.stretcher.com/forums/t/19.aspx?PageIndex=1 (remove space and paste into browser)
 
A lot of the material that goes to recycling is used as raw material for different products. We're constantly finding uses for scrap tires. Plastic bottles aren't used to make new plastic bottles, but rather are fed into other manufacturing processes. So your recycling is a raw material for other items, reducing the need to extract raw material from the earth, with the attendant extraction and processing costs (monetary and environmental).

I think it's a bit of a red herring to compare costs to recycle something vs making the same thing from raw materials. The savings come from not having to extract some raw materials in the first place for other (unrelated) items.
 
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