real world accounting

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Are you *still* trying to teach teachers how to teach?

*sigh*


Anyway, this is already done, at the whim of the teacher. My brother teaches math, and learned that they were repaving the highway in front of the school, about an 8-mile stretch. Using the concepts of estimation, the metric system, multiplication, measuring, and a few other random items, he had the students figure out how much it would cost to paint the lines on the road.

(This included internet research into the type of paint used, including that cool reflective stuff)

Then he called up the township, got the real numbers, and had them do a comparison.

When I taught at an inner city school, I had the kids do an environmental project. They interviewed the school board and janitors to find out the last time the air vents and water pipes had been cleaned. They wrote letters to the EPA and other agencies to get sent free test kits. They tested for airborne particulates, asbestos, lead, etc. Then they wrote up the results and presented them to the school board.

Two months later, the air ducts got their first cleaning in 12 years.

This sort of learning is already out there, and is limited only by the creativity of the teacher.

 

[drkitten]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers?

Only that some of the concepts may be too advanced for the class, depending upon the complexity of the number-set you pick.

Nobby's example of costing the line-painting is a good example. It's a good project for lower-skill students to figure out how much area gets painted (and how much paint that
takes, and therefore how much it costs). It would probably not be a good project to have the students cost the entire roadworks or to try to research to figure out what kind of paint should be used (traffic engineers spend their lives trying to do that).

Another disadvantage, of course, is that the real numbers may not have the properties you're looking for. If you're trying to teach about depreciation or Sarbanes-Oxley, costing out the road paint won't help, since those concepts aren't really relevant to that project.

Just because data is out there doesn't mean it must be used, you know.

The advantages of real-world datasets, of course, are substantial -- the biggest one probably being in student motivation if they can see they're working on some project that's related to the real world. But you need to choose your datasets with some care and usually need to clean them up substantially before they're ready for the classroom. They're not usually just sitting there like fully-ripened fruit, just waiting to be picked.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Are you *still* trying to teach teachers how to teach?

*sigh*

I'm only trying help, it almost sounds as if my help is not wanted, if that is the case its unfortunate, that is the very thing that drives me to help more.

Anyway, this is already done, at the whim of the teacher. My brother teaches math, and learned that they were repaving the highway in front of the school, about an 8-mile stretch. Using the concepts of estimation, the metric system, multiplication, measuring, and a few other random items, he had the students figure out how much it would cost to paint the lines on the road.

(This included internet research into the type of paint used, including that cool reflective stuff)

Then he called up the township, got the real numbers, and had them do a comparison.

When I taught at an inner city school, I had the kids do an environmental project. They interviewed the school board and janitors to find out the last time the air vents and water pipes had been cleaned. They wrote letters to the EPA and other agencies to get sent free test kits. They tested for airborne particulates, asbestos, lead, etc. Then they wrote up the results and presented them to the school board.

Two months later, the air ducts got their first cleaning in 12 years.

This sort of learning is already out there, and is limited only by the creativity of the teacher.

I knew it had to be done somewhere, I am saying that it should be done everywhere, and often, it could help keep things on track. More importantly, it would show them how to keep things on track. As your example shows, it works. Adults don't always want children to know what they are doing-or not doing-but their direct questions are hard to get around.
"Miss Maple, why does the school pay for your limo service while you are making $60,000 a year? At $200 dollars apiece, the money for that service would pay for "X" amount of computers. You do want us to have them, don't you?"

 

[drkitten]

I'm only trying help, it almost sounds as if my help is not wanted,

You're right. Your help is not wanted. The schools are already in enough difficulty without your creating more.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, your "help" will in fact make matters substantially worse. I have a professional obligation to the children not to let you help.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Only that some of the concepts may be too advanced for the class, depending upon the complexity of the number-set you pick.

Of course.

Nobby's example of costing the line-painting is a good example. It's a good project for lower-skill students to figure out how much area gets painted (and how much paint that
takes, and therefore how much it costs). It would probably not be a good project to have the students cost the entire roadworks or to try to research to figure out what kind of paint should be used (traffic engineers spend their lives trying to do that).

With the teacher's (or other) help.

Another disadvantage, of course, is that the real numbers may not have the properties you're looking for. If you're trying to teach about depreciation or Sarbanes-Oxley, costing out the road paint won't help, since those concepts aren't really relevant to that project.

The numbers I am talking about has most to do with the school budget, the costs of programs, how much money is available, where the most money is spent, etc. The aim would be to find enough money to be able to afford computers. I think the waste alone will pay for them.

Just because data is out there doesn't mean it must be used, you know.

I know.

The advantages of real-world datasets, of course, are substantial -- the biggest one probably being in student motivation if they can see they're working on some project that's related to the real world. But you need to choose your datasets with some care and usually need to clean them up substantially before they're ready for the classroom. They're not usually just sitting there like fully-ripened fruit, just waiting to be picked.

Fine. Pick it, wash it, send it in. The idea is to inform children what is happening. Even if nothing happens, children will grow up knowing. Perhaps one day they may in a position to change it.

 

[drkitten]

The numbers I am talking about has most to do with the school budget, the costs of programs, how much money is available, where the most money is spent, etc. The aim would be to find enough money to be able to afford computers. I think the waste alone will pay for them.

You're right. That is what you think. Once again, your unsupported thought leads immediately to a call for action, without any checking to see whether or not it's correct.

Now, of course, I have problems envisioning how all this waste is sitting there in plain sight for any group of fifth graders to find.... but on the other hand, all of the opposition candidates for school board, and the anti-public school advocates, and the professional small-government advocates with their legions of professional accountants have somehow managed to miss it. I guess in your world, pointing out fraud and waste is a good way for a candidate to lose an election -- or perhaps the Black Helicopters will simply take away any accountants who audit the same publically available dataset.

Just a word of advice. You would have substantially more credibility if you let your facts determine your ideology instead the other way around. Well, by "substantially more," I really mean "any."

 

[Mashuna]

I think this is a great idea. I'm currently auditing the final accounts of a local government authority. I could save myself a lot of time by just popping down to the local school and handing the files over. They can at least work out the best areas for efficiency gains.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

You're right. Your help is not wanted. The schools are already in enough difficulty without your creating more.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, your "help" will in fact make matters substantially worse. I have a professional obligation to the children not to let you help.

I love it. You can thank those ever increasing packets of homework for my attention. One day my niece told me that I got a "B" for mostly doing her homework, because she had run out of time. For a second I felt proud... then "otherwise"... "very otherwise". At her, (I gave her more homework) and then the school. I think technology can help, and I am going to push for more of it. Stand in my way if you want, you would actually help me.

 

[drkitten]

I love it. You can thank those ever increasing packets of homework for my attention. One day my niece told me that I got a "B" for mostly doing her homework, because she had run out of time. For a second I felt proud... then "otherwise"... "very otherwise". At her, (I gave her more homework) and then the school. I think technology can help, and I am going to push for more of it. Stand in my way if you want, you would actually help me.

So,... what you're telling me is that you cheated, and it's the school's fault?

That makes more sense than anything else you've written in this subforum, I guess....

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

When I was in 7th grade (in 1975), we did a class project called "Gompers". This was a pre-packaged thing because there were ready-made workbooks and such, IIRC. Gompers was a fictional small municipality, and we set it up: decided what kind of local government it would have, elected and appointed everyone, debated and passed a budget, and so on. I'm sure it wasn't very realistic, but it was accessible to kids our age.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

You're right. That is what you think. Once again, your unsupported thought leads immediately to a call for action, without any checking to see whether or not it's correct.

So, you think there is no waste?

Now, of course, I have problems envisioning how all this waste is sitting there in plain sight for any group of fifth graders to find....

I love the way some of you always mention for the lower grades. I don't think I got accounting till the 10th. Anyway, I am talking about 11th and 12th.

but on the other hand, all of the opposition candidates for school board, and the anti-public school advocates, and the professional small-government advocates with their legions of professional accountants have somehow managed to miss it.

Some of those accountants see nothing wrong with Miss Maple's limo service, but students might.

Just a word of advice. You would have substantially more credibility if you let your facts determine your ideology instead the other way around. Well, by "substantially more," I really mean "any."

It more fun the way I am doing it, especially now that you don't like it. I will point, then seek to find. That is, if it is alright with you? Oh wait, why would you matter?

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

So,... what you're telling me is that you cheated, and it's the school's fault?

I think you would find that many parents give their children the answer sometimes, especially when they are pressed for time.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

When I was in 7th grade (in 1975), we did a class project called "Gompers". This was a pre-packaged thing because there were ready-made workbooks and such, IIRC. Gompers was a fictional small municipality, and we set it up: decided what kind of local government it would have, elected and appointed everyone, debated and passed a budget, and so on. I'm sure it wasn't very realistic, but it was accessible to kids our age.

I think it was a good first step. That primed you for moving on to the real numbers of government, that is, if the school aimmed to.

 

[Piscivore]

So, you think there is no waste?

There may be. Why do you assume that it exists, and is egregious?

Some of those accountants see nothing wrong with Miss Maple's limo service, but students might.

Show me a real world example of a teacher going to their job in a limo service.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

There may be. Why do you assume that it exists, and is egregious?

If it works in places, and not in others, there has to be some. I just have that feeling, but I hope this is more to your liking:

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=665

If you want more, I now know I can find them.

Show me a real world example of a teacher going to their job in a limo service.

That was just a fictional example. I don't know any Miss Maple. And I never said that Miss Maple was a teacher. The example is based on a case where someone at a medical school moved out of state, and the school used a limo service to get here from PA. That is, until someone found out. They stopped when it became known.

 

[Piscivore]

If it works in places, and not in others, there has to be some.

What is "it"- if what works in some places?

I just have that feeling,

So Dr. K is correct. Thanks.

but I hope this is more to your liking:

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=665

I just skimmed through it, but it seemed to be heavy on assertion and light on data.

If you want more, I now know I can find them.

Please do. It would be interesting to see you try to back up an assertion with fact.

That was just a fictional example.

Indeed, and the problem with fictional examples is... anyone? Anyone?

I don't know any Miss Maple. And I never said that Miss Maple was a teacher.

Not explicitly, granted- but you strongly implied that in your fictional example, "Miss Maple" was the teacher of the students studying real world scenarios and discovering the egregious waste- in your example, a school funded limo service- you "know" is there based on your feelings.

The example is based on a case where someone at a medical school moved out of state, and the school used a limo service to get here from PA. That is, until someone found out. They stopped when it became known.

Do you have a cite for this, or is it another "fictional example"?

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

What is "it"- if what works in some places?

Think now... what was the subject?

So Dr. K is correct. Thanks.

Glad I could help.

I just skimmed through it, but it seemed to be heavy on assertion and light on data.

Fine.

Please do. It would be interesting to see you try to back up an assertion with fact.

You would just say the same thing with any link I provide... I ain't got the time to play spin the bottle with you.

Not explicitly, granted- but you strongly implied that in your fictional example, "Miss Maple" was the teacher of the students studying real world scenarios and discovering the egregious waste- in your example, a school funded limo service- you "know" is there based on your feelings.

That is what you strongly wanted to believe. The student could have met the principal in the hall, after the class.

Do you have a cite for this, or is it another "fictional example"?

I am going to look for it... but for you, I am going to take my time.

 

[madurobob]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?

Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.

(For what its worth, I am a CPA, CMA, MBA)

 

[Piscivore]

Think now... what was the subject?

Ah, okay. I found your sentence difficult to parse, but now I get it. You are saying "if someone finds waste there must be some." This fails to explain why, before anyone looks, you are assuming the waste exists and it is scandalously bad.

You would just say the same thing with any link I provide...

Not one with hard data instead of opinion, no.

I ain't got the time to play spin the bottle with you.

How about "Seven Minutes in Heaven", then?

That is what you strongly wanted to believe. The student could have met the principal in the hall, after the class.

It seemed the most likely scenario was a group of students in class. That's how I read it. I have no particular reason to "want" to believe anything- my position that your hypothetical is pure fantasy is unchanged no matter what role your Miss Maple might possibly be filling. If you want her to be the prinicpal, fine- replace "teacher" in my post with "principal". Or "janitor", "lunch lady", or any other that suits you. Don't quibble over semantics. Show me any real world instance of any school official or employee recieving or clearly benefiting from obvious fraud or extravagance similar to that which you postulated.

I am going to look for it... but for you, I am going to take my time.

Try on the shelf next to "Alice in Wonderland".