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Range Voting

Xulld

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuKDXeJt7KA

Year after year I hear so many complaints about voting systems, but have not seen much dialog about good alternatives.

I would appreciate a careful critique of Range Voting, perhaps in contrast to Approval voting, or other such weighted systems.

Pro's, con's bring it!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuKDXeJt7KA

Year after year I hear so many complaints about voting systems, but have not seen much dialog about good alternatives.

I would appreciate a careful critique of Range Voting, perhaps in contrast to Approval voting, or other such weighted systems.

Pro's, con's bring it!

Outside of the electoral college for president, I can't say I have ever heard any criticism of the current method of voting. (i.e. one person, one vote per elected position.)
 
I've thought of range voting before, though I hadn't seen anyone actually put together a tutorial on its pros and cons. A couple concerns I have after watching the video(s):

1) The narrator seems to say the mechanics of performing a range vote take nearly the same effort as caveman voting. But, I don't think I saw any suggestions on how to handle this with paper or mail-in ballots. Poking chads seems like it would be MUCH more complicated for a range. Maybe partially coloring a bar rather than a circle would work, but I expect many many voters would not understand the change and get it wrong. And even if they didn't, it would add more opportunities of legal challenges by the loser.

2) One example he gave (in video 3) was 100/100/0 would win, in the current system, over 90/90/90. I didn't see why. 100/100/0 would translate to 2 votes, while 90/90/90 would translate to 3. I do understand how he is using game theory to show that range can prevent abuse in primaries. But this particular example I didn't get.

3) I wasn't clear whether he was suggesting range voting be used in primaries, or be used to do away with primaries and just use them directly for general elections. I think politically it would be hard to do away with primaries (since it would cause some segment to feel they are losing power), but if used in primaries, I don't think they would then be useful in the general election (since all the range "goodness" was already injected at the primary level, if that makes sense). Still, that would allow local areas to implement their own method of primaries, so maybe some could try range and see how it goes.

4) It is the cynic in me, but I am guessing, while the math sounds promising, I expect once power and money is mixed into range voting, it would make it equal to the current method.
 
The Least of All Evils

Hi, my name is Dale Sheldon-Hess, and I registered for these forums just to reply to this question. I blog on the topic of election method reform at The Least of All Evils (leastevil.blogspot.com), and participate in the forums of the Center for Range Voting (rangevoting.org) and the Center for Election Science (electology.org).

Quick aside: Approval and range aren't normally referred to as "weighted systems". Rated, cardinal, ratings-based; these are more often used. "Weighted" would be something like the Borda voting method (which I won't be discussing at the moment).

On to the meat of the question!

Approval voting is equivalent to "range 2"; i.e., approval is range with just two possible scores, 0 (not approved) and 1 (approved). So in some sense, approval voting IS range voting, we're just debating the optimal number of different scoring levels.

If voters are highly knowledgeable (meaning they have very accurate, or even perfect, knowledge of what the election results will be, perhaps via pre-election polling) and highly motivated (meaning they are willing to make any kind of strategic manipulation on their ballot in order to get their way), then what we find is that range voters will exaggerate all their preferences, so that each candidate receives either the minimum or the maximum allowable score. So in this case, the extra scoring levels don't matter at all; all voters will use their range ballots as if they were approval ballots.

Only if voters are particularly unclear on the likely outcome, or are open to expressing a willingness to compromise, do additional scoring levels add anything. And in these cases, we will find that total satisfaction with the election outcome will be higher with range voting than with approval.

What do I mean by total satisfaction? I'm referring to a Monte Carlo simulation, performed by Dr. Warren Smith in 2000 (who went on to found the Center for Range Voting in 2005). Simulated voters were assigned utility values for simulated candidates, and simulated votes--both "honest" and "strategic"--were cast using a wide variety--about 20--different voting methods, including approval voting and range voting. These are the (summarized) results: rangevoting.org/BayRegsFig.html

From the graphic, you can see that strategic approval and strategic range are identical, as I already mentioned, while honest range is the best method which was tested; that not only is it significantly better than our current plurality voting method, but it is significantly better than the the instant runoff method (which has lately gained some notoriety in California and elsewhere in the US).

So, the advantage of approval is that it is simple. The advantage of range is that it can lead to even greater levels of voter satisfaction. But either would be leaps-and-bounds above our current voting system, and indeed, better than ANY other commonly-recommended alternative voting systems.
 
Outside of the electoral college for president, I can't say I have ever heard any criticism of the current method of voting. (i.e. one person, one vote per elected position.)

"One person, one vote" is not a prescription of what the ballot looks like, it's an imperative that all voters be given equal weight. A ballot can you let you name one, it can let rank the candidates in order, it can let you score the candidates however you want, or who knows what else. But as long as each voters ballot has the same strength in determining the outcome, it's still "one person, one vote."

And while you may not have heard it, there is quite a bit of discussion going on about the topic. Plurality voting is universally reviled by those participating, and the argument is only over what to replace it with. So I hope you will find this thread educational.
 
"One person, one vote" is not a prescription of what the ballot looks like, it's an imperative that all voters be given equal weight. A ballot can you let you name one, it can let rank the candidates in order, it can let you score the candidates however you want, or who knows what else. But as long as each voters ballot has the same strength in determining the outcome, it's still "one person, one vote."

And while you may not have heard it, there is quite a bit of discussion going on about the topic. Plurality voting is universally reviled by those participating, and the argument is only over what to replace it with. So I hope you will find this thread educational.

So people discussing range voting and which range voting is best, revile plurality voting? Not surprising, but it means nothing especially if I was to hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority of people have never heard of range voting when applied to elected offices.

Good luck with your efforts. You have an uphill fight. Plurality voting is easy to understand and doesn't need a chart to make it understandable. Also, any changes you want will have to be approved by plurality voting or by someone elected by plurality voting.
 
1) The narrator seems to say the mechanics of performing a range vote take nearly the same effort as caveman voting. But, I don't think I saw any suggestions on how to handle this with paper or mail-in ballots. Poking chads seems like it would be MUCH more complicated for a range.

This partially depends on how many scoring levels you allow. The example uses 100, but you could do it with 10, or 3, or just 2 (which is approval voting). Obviously, with 100, it'll be a little tricky to translate that between a paper format and a machine-readable format. But smaller scales would be quite easy.

2) One example he gave (in video 3) was 100/100/0 would win, in the current system, over 90/90/90. I didn't see why. 100/100/0 would translate to 2 votes, while 90/90/90 would translate to 3.

Haven't seen the videos (writing from work, so I haven't seen them) but having seen similar, I have a guess here: It's clearer if you look at it from the perspective of the three voters, rather than the two candidates. Voter1's true opinion is 100/90, as is voter2's, while voter3's is 0/90. So, in a plurality election, voter1 and voter 2 will vote for the first candidate (100 rather than 90), while voter3 votes for the 2nd (90 rather than 0). So the 1st candidate wins. But, if they used score voting (and voted honestly) then the 1st candidate gets 200 points (100+100+0), while the 2nd gets 270 (90+90+90).

3) I wasn't clear whether he was suggesting range voting be used in primaries, or be used to do away with primaries and just use them directly for general elections. I think politically it would be hard to do away with primaries (since it would cause some segment to feel they are losing power), but if used in primaries, I don't think they would then be useful in the general election (since all the range "goodness" was already injected at the primary level, if that makes sense). Still, that would allow local areas to implement their own method of primaries, so maybe some could try range and see how it goes.

Consider this: the only purpose of political parties is to hold primaries.

Primaries are important, because if two similar candidates run in the same election, they will compete, zero-sum, for the same voters.

But, with range voting, since each voter can score each candidate independently, there isn't a zero-sum competition.

On the one hand, this means you could theoretically skip the primaries entirely and throw everyone into a range election. In practice, there is some direct competition when voters begin to act strategically on their ballots, and it gets hard to keep track of very large numbers of candidates, so it's not a bad idea to continue to use primaries, which means parties are still useful things to have.

Finally, even if range voting were used in primaries, as long as more than two parties put forward candidates for the general election, then it is STILL advantageous to use range voting in that general election. It doesn't ALL get baked in.

4) It is the cynic in me, but I am guessing, while the math sounds promising, I expect once power and money is mixed into range voting, it would make it equal to the current method.

Range would deliver better results. It makes it much easier for 3rd parties to grow and eventually compete, and it is more likely to select compromise candidates rather than partisans. The challenge is overcoming the money and power to get there, and fighting the money and power to keep it.

In the 1910s, an alternative voting method called Bucklin was popular. But when it elected someone outside the two major parties, a Socialist no less, the major parties fought hard to eliminate it, and did so successfully.
 
So people discussing range voting and which range voting is best, revile plurality voting?

No, that's not it. There are all SORTS of voting methods people argue for, of which range voting is just one. You'll find people arguing for majority judgment, instant runoff, several variations of Condorcet's method, the Borda count... my personal favorite is approval, since it's very simple, and captures most of the advantages of range (since it's "range 2".)

Good luck with your efforts. You have an uphill fight. Plurality voting is easy to understand and doesn't need a chart to make it understandable. Also, any changes you want will have to be approved by plurality voting or by someone elected by plurality voting.

Thank you, and I know; I've been at this for three years, some for much longer, and it's very, very slow going. And I hold off on the charts until people ask specific questions (like "give me the pros and cons of range versus approval"); I don't just pop them out when someone isn't even aware that plurality is just one choice among many. Different people obviously have different levels of familiarity with the material here :)

Although I will say that Germany's (now) third-most-popular party, the Pirate Party, are huge fans of approval voting. They use it in their internal elections and they're looking at 10% of the seats in some state-level legislatures over there. So it's starting to move, maybe, even if not yet here in the US.
 
You couldn't be more wrong. Political parties HATE primaries. They try to avoid them whenever possible.

And I hate to do my job too, but that's still why I'm here.

Seriously, political parties exist SOLELY to avoid having like-minded candidates split the vote and guarantee that ALL of them lose. Sure, they'd rather not go through the public process and have their incumbent get publicly ripped at, but that IS their only purpose. A back-room party-leader deal is the same result, and is still the party serving this (its one) purpose.
 
No, that's not it. There are all SORTS of voting methods people argue for, of which range voting is just one. You'll find people arguing for majority judgment, instant runoff, several variations of Condorcet's method, the Borda count... my personal favorite is approval, since it's very simple, and captures most of the advantages of range (since it's "range 2".)



Thank you, and I know; I've been at this for three years, some for much longer, and it's very, very slow going. And I hold off on the charts until people ask specific questions (like "give me the pros and cons of range versus approval"); I don't just pop them out when someone isn't even aware that plurality is just one choice among many. Different people obviously have different levels of familiarity with the material here :)

Although I will say that Germany's (now) third-most-popular party, the Pirate Party, are huge fans of approval voting. They use it in their internal elections and they're looking at 10% of the seats in some state-level legislatures over there. So it's starting to move, maybe, even if not yet here in the US.
The Pirate Party? 3rd most popular party? Did you use range voting to get to that conclusion? According to this, they were a distant 7th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009
 
And I hate to do my job too, but that's still why I'm here.

Seriously, political parties exist SOLELY to avoid having like-minded candidates split the vote and guarantee that ALL of them lose. Sure, they'd rather not go through the public process and have their incumbent get publicly ripped at, but that IS their only purpose. A back-room party-leader deal is the same result, and is still the party serving this (its one) purpose.

Seriously, NO THEY DON'T. Have you ever been involved in a mainstream party? Their SOLE goal is to get their guys elected and having primaries does not help them do that. It exposes candidates to infighting and wastes resources that could be used in the general election.
 
The Pirate Party? 3rd most popular party? Did you use range voting to get to that conclusion? According to this, they were a distant 7th.

2009? Old news, friend.

(Excuse the non-clickability; I'm still too new to be allowed to make proper links.)

www (dot) businessweek (dot) com/news/2012-04-10/germany-s-pirate-party-siphons-opposition-support-poll-shows
 
K.I.S.S. it. You're confusing people unneccessarily.

The only new system that would be an improvement would be Instant Runoff with a None of the Above option.

We tried IRV in Pierce County, WA. We wound up with a crazy bastard for County Assessor.

No, thank you.
 
Okay, the currently most popular minor party in Germany supports range voting. It still hasn't been used outside the party itself, has it?

I don't think you can make any correlation to what's happened in Germany to what's going to happen in the USA with respect to voting methodology.
 
Seriously, NO THEY DON'T. Have you ever been involved in a mainstream party? Their SOLE goal is to get their guys elected

Take a step back.

Why did parties form?

George Washington railed against it, as did most of the rest of the founding fathers. And yet, here we are.

It's because, and only because, of the zero-sum nature of voting.

Yes, parties formed to "get their guys elected", which means they formed to hold primaries, because primaries are the first step to how you get your guys elected. Not always through a formal process where all voters are allowed to participate, with ballot boxes or voting booths (that's a more recent turn), but the idea of making an internal decision among like-minded individuals as a way of limiting the number of like-minded candidates running in the election, that is the foundation of party. That is what they do. Without that necessity, we would have headed Washington's warnings.

I apologize if using the word "primary" for that concept set off a series of connotations implying something like what we saw, for example, in the last six months with the Republican party. I intended something much more general.

Parties exist to ensure that no more than one member of the party will run for each office.

(And think that's enough now for that one side-tangent; I hope we can discuss some of the other, more on-topic, points now.)
 
Okay, the currently most popular minor party in Germany supports range voting. It still hasn't been used outside the party itself, has it?

I don't think you can make any correlation to what's happened in Germany to what's going to happen in the USA with respect to voting methodology.

Not in any governmental capacity, no.

It's being used (or rather, approval voting, aka "range 2" has been used) by a number of professional organizations, including The Mathematical Association of America and The American Statistical Association, and some college student governments, such as Dartmouth, are starting to pick it up.

Then there's the whole world of online "voting", done with Amazon product ratings, IMDB's "Top Movie" ratings, some Olympic events, etc. etc.. It's hard to get people to see that as counting, though mathematically it's all the same idea.
 
K.I.S.S. it. You're confusing people unneccessarily.

The only new system that would be an improvement would be Instant Runoff with a None of the Above option.

We tried IRV in Pierce County, WA. We wound up with a crazy bastard for County Assessor.

No, thank you.

I'm confused! Is this a post in _favor_ of IRV ("would be an improvement"), or opposed ("wound up with a crazy")?

IRV is very different from range voting. If you follow my initial link, to Smith's results, you'll actually see that strategic IRV gives you the same outcomes as plurality voting, which are much worse than the results you'll get from range or approval.

IRV has, unfortunately, gained a large amount of mindshare, despite its ineffectiveness. And when it fails, it tends to poison the well for other, better electoral reforms.
 
The whole idea seems to be not to piss anybody off.

Forget it. Sometimes (like right now) we need somebody to come in there and shake things up and snatch society back from the edge of the cliff.

Perot would have won.
 

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