• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Randi not dealing with religious paranormal?

Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Messages
4,561
Yes, I know that this subject has been raised recently by other members but I still can not understand why Randi is not dealing with the official claims of the Catholic Church about the miracles.
There is nothing in Randi' s site ( or, very little ) about the claims of miracles of Matteo Pio Colella ( http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020616_padre-pio_en.html ), Dr. Manuel Nevado ( http://www.vatican.va/latest/documents/escriva_miracolo-canoniz_en.html ), etc.

I think a miracle has to be classified among the " paranormal " events ( right? ) and I think Randi is not shy about dealing with religion at all ( http://www.randi.org/jr/072503.html )

So, why does not he stop to deal with that stupid Sylvia Browne, and start to deal with more serious claims?
 
Last edited:
From the Challenge FAQ:


[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]2.5. Why the limitation on spiritual and religious claims?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]It's not so much the claim as it is that no one who has applied has been able to come up with proof that is verifiable under controlled conditions [7]. It's not enough to reason your way to the existence of something spiritual or religious; you need to be able to prove it scientifically. Most spiritual apologists go to great lengths to postulate why the existence of a higher power cannot be demonstrated scientifically, and that puts such discussions out of the scope of the Challenge. Do not waste your time attempting to engage the JREF in a debate over this issue. You will simply be referred back here to this FAQ, in which the reasons for rejecting such claims have been clearly outlined and detailed in layman's terms.[/FONT][/FONT]
 
He's often covered so-called miracles - such as weeping statues (for example there is an entry in the Encyclopedia about it see: http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/weeping statues.html).

Randi touches on the JREF's approach to religious cliams back in 2000: http://www.randi.org/jr/05-07-2000.html

...snip...
Fear and Trepidation

I have received an e-mail posting that I will share here with you, along with my response, so that you may have a clearer picture of the kind of traffic I get every day. In general, we do not handle religious matters at JREF - except where direct evidence is offered for examination. We would certainly look into weeping statues, claims of faith-healing, and such things as the Shroud of Turin. Religion seldom offers any sort of evidence to examine, and is a matter of philosophy rather than science. ...snip...

Here is an example of him directly talking about a specific claim:

http://www.randi.org/jr/020405will.html#1

...snip...
WILL THIS PERSISTENT DELUSION NEVER GO AWAY?

The small church of St. Agostino in Pantano, a poor agricultural suburb of the port of Civitavecchia, Italy, about 40 miles north of Rome, made international headlines in February of 1995, attracting thousands of curious visitors and charming the media when a Madonna statue was said to have shed tears of blood. This claim is, as we know, a rather common cause célèbre, and it faded into the rest of such mythology, mixed in with other objects — pictures or statues — that were weeping blood, tears, or oil, or simply rotating, and/or sundry glowing objects that the tabloids depend on for headlines when the other Madonna is behaving herself.

Get ready for another onslaught of "evidence," since the Civitavecchia diocese just ordered theologians, historians and doctors — all "experts" — to review the matter and prepare an official document. They did so, and not surprisingly concluded that the phenomenon has no ordinary explanation, thus encouraging the local shops and hotels to expect another onslaught of eager tourists.

Corriere, Italy's leading newspaper, said the report presented a careful analysis of all the testimony given at the time by awed parishioners, as well as "all possible explanations for the phenomenon." The paper said that it was the "unanimous opinion" of the "experts" that "in that corner of the Earth, at the gates of Rome, an event took place that has no human explanation and points at the mystery of the supernatural."

The 17-inch tall statue was said to have cried fourteen times, and Monsignor Girolamo Grillo, the local bishop, said that the statue cried blood while held in his hands. However, Grillo had a very cautious statement to issue about the event, perhaps recalling that so many other such wonders have been subsequently revealed as blatant hoaxes: "We have not proclaimed that the tear-shedding of the Madonna was miraculous, but the facts speak for themselves." Nice dodge, Monsignor!

But just what are those facts? Back in 1995, it was immediately found that the red liquid on the statue was male human blood, which might make a skeptic begin to wonder, but hardly slowed down the public enthusiasm for the miracle, of course. These wonders are not easy for ordinary mortals to understand, you see.

Some of us might ask why a DNA test-and-match was not performed with local males who had access to the plaster statue, particularly the statue's actual owner, Fabio Gregori, and his family. That would mean calling into question the honesty of certain persons, we were told, a distinct no-no in the religious hoax business. Ah, but other high-tech methods were diligently applied to this statue, showing that real science was at work to support the miracle. An X-ray and CAT scan showed no cavities that could house a device to squirt liquid, you see. Well, in my perverse way, I recall that back in the 1940s in Kingston, Ontario, Canada, the local priest at a church that had been visited by another weeping virgin miracle was discovered squirting K-Mart shaving lotion onto the celebrated statue from a concealed plastic water-gun. That holy figure, too, had been thoroughly examined by "experts" who fumbled the investigation grandly.

Some of us just never grow up, folks, and will continue to get goggle-eyed over such claims just because they're supportive of popular mythology. Medieval thinking is still in vogue, it seems. And, we must ask, what expertise do "theologians and historians" have to judge such matters? Lots of anecdotal material? Appeals to local pride? And those medical doctors, who might have used their authority — if they were given any — to perform the appropriate and obvious tests, simply failed to do so!

Ten years after the event, it's a bit late for launching another investigation, a fact which suits the needs of the miracle-mongers quite well. The Bleeding Virgin of Civitavecchia is bound to become an accepted wonder of Christianity, I'm sure....


...snip...

I'd say the evidence is that he does tackle "religious paranormal".
 
So, I wasted my time reading your link about Matteo Pio Colella - there are no specifics of any miracle performed by him on that page, just extremely vague and unsbustantiated reference to a "healing" from many years ago.
Perhaps if Matteo was still alive now you may find more interest forthcoming.

I'm not wasting my time reading the other link too, thanks all the same.
 
Most 'Miracles' tend to be historic events, and not an ongoing phenonema that can be tested. I agree that apparatitons/healings are paranormal, but most of the claims are history.

If someone came forward claiming to heal, or with a statue that bled repeatedly then as Randi says he doesn't need the explanation, it would qualify for the prize.

Randi is not going to investigate a specific past event for the challenge, religous or otherwise.
 
From the Challenge FAQ:

About the " you need to be able to prove it scientifically "..

http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=491&id_rubrique=491
" "Medical Bureau" has two different meanings. It is, first of all, a place in the Sanctuary with two offices where a doctor practices. This doctor receives the declarations and begins an examination of the facts according to the traditional criteria as it was defined in the 18th century by Cardinal Lambertini the future Pope Benedict XIV for the process of beatification

If the case appears serious, the doctor arranges a Medical Bureau which is a consultation where all the medical doctors, regardless of their religious persuasion, present in the Sanctuary on the day may attend.

If the doctor of Lourdes and the gathered medical bureau find in favour the file is sent to the International Medical Committee of Lourdes (C.M.I.L.). This is made up of some 20 members, respected in their own particular area. This committee has been in existence since 1947. In 1954, Bishop Théas wanted it to have a true international dimension.

This committee is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop for a set period of time which can be renewed. The doctor of Lourdes is the secretary to this committee.

This committee makes a judgement about a case. One or more of its members are them charged with examining it in detail and informing himself on all the medical literature published on related subjects... The person charged with the case may consult with colleagues on the outside. Normally the person concerned is not summoned to be present.

The Committee meets once a year, in the autumn. They examine the current files, When everything is in place (this can take some time) the committee decides by way of a vote whether to declare or refuse to confirm that this cure is inexplicable according to present scientific knowledge. A two-third majority is required for an affirmative vote.

The medical result is sent to the bishop of the diocese where the cured person lives. The bishop would, naturally, have been kept up to date with the proceedings. If is appears that the result is going to be positive the bishop is advised, in advance, to set up locally a small medical committee who can, at the given moment, consider the conclusions of the committee.

In the light of current events, the bishop can decide or abstain from recognising the "miraculous" character of this cure.

The current attitude of doctors is very respectful of the Magisterium of the Church. As Christians, they know that a miracle is a spiritual sign. They don't want to be judges on this matter. Moreover, for a modern mentality, it is difficult to say that something is "inexplicable". They can only say that it is "unexplained" "

CONGREGATION FOR THE CAUSES OF SAINTS
" A collegial body made up of five medical specialists and two professional experts form the Medical Consultation, in charge of the scientific examination of the presumed miracle. Their judgment is of a "strictly scientific" character, so their being "atheists or of other religions is not relevant," Monsignor Di Ruberto emphasized. "
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/ZMIRCAN.HTM
 
He's often covered so-called miracles - such as weeping statues (for example there is an entry in the Encyclopedia about it see: http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/weeping statues.html).

Randi touches on the JREF's approach to religious cliams back in 2000: http://www.randi.org/jr/05-07-2000.html



Here is an example of him directly talking about a specific claim:

http://www.randi.org/jr/020405will.html#1



I'd say the evidence is that he does tackle "religious paranormal".

These are not events officially recognized as of supernatural intervention by the Catholic Church as the two claimed miracles I quoted are
 
So, I wasted my time reading your link about Matteo Pio Colella - there are no specifics of any miracle performed by him on that page, just extremely vague and unsbustantiated reference to a "healing" from many years ago.
Perhaps if Matteo was still alive now you may find more interest forthcoming.

I'm not wasting my time reading the other link too, thanks all the same.


Is Matteo Pio Colella dead??
:)


" A little boy, the son of a doctor who works in a hospital Pio founded in San Giovanni Rotondo, awoke from a coma triggered by meningitis. Doctors consulted by the Vatican concluded that Matteo Pio Colella's recovery had no scientific explanation "
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/06/16/vatican.saint/

" On 21 November 2001 the medical testimony was examined by the same Congregation "
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020616_padre-pio_en.html

" On the night of June 20, 2000, Matteo Colella was admitted to the intensive care unit of the hospital with galloping meningitis. By the next morning, doctors had lost all hope for him. Additional surgery seemed pointless since nine of the boy's vital organs had ceased to give signs of life.

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/news02/20020104.html
Then, that night, during a prayer vigil attended by Matteo's mother and some Capuchin friars of Padre Pio's monastery, the child's condition improved suddenly, startling the doctors. "

http://www.capuchinfriars.org/pio_cure.html
His mother, Maria Lucia Colella, later recounted, “I was aware of the irreversibility of the tragedy that was taking place. I was losing my son, and I could do nothing. I stayed motionless praying, in silence, with tears falling from my eyes. Jesus, help me. Jesus, help me. Jesus, Mary, don’t abandon us.”

Matteo was quickly moved to the intensive care unit of the hospital, as his condition deteriorated dramatically. The prognosis was that he would die soon. Medication and initial surgery were ineffective. Nine of Matteo’s vital organs had become diseased and were gradually shutting down. According to the medical experts, there was absolutely no hope for the boy’s recovery."
 
Most 'Miracles' tend to be historic events, and not an ongoing phenonema that can be tested. I agree that apparatitons/healings are paranormal, but most of the claims are history.

But the medical documentation about the " miracles " is available
And it is not true the Randi considers ongoing phenomena

If someone came forward claiming to heal, or with a statue that bled repeatedly then as Randi says he doesn't need the explanation, it would qualify for the prize.

Randi is not going to investigate a specific past event for the challenge, religous or otherwise.

I am not talking about the challenge, there is not a mention AFAIK about Father Pio in the commentaries as well..
And Randi does not only deal with people who get on and claim for the prize..
 
But the medical documentation about the " miracles " is available
And it is not true the Randi considers ongoing phenomena

You get the saint to appeal for the challenge and to preform the miracle under controlled conditions and they winn the million!

I am not talking about the challenge, there is not a mention AFAIK about Father Pio in the commentaries as well..
And Randi does not only deal with people who get on and claim for the prize..

No but I am not sure if people other than the members of the church go out of thier way to visit places where miracles happen.

If the Vatican was to get on the TV and claim that there was a potential saint creating miracles that would perhaps get Randi to comment.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2043261.stm
" By the time of his death in 1968, he had millions of followers, not just in Italy but around the world.


The Pope has prayed at Padre Pio's tomb

His funeral was attended by 100,000 mourners, and his monastery in San Giovanni Rotondo has become a place of pilgrimage that rivals Lourdes and Assisi.

The Pope has created many saints, but few have been canonised so quickly. As a young man, the Pope travelled to Italy to make his confession to Padre Pio.

Forio Tessari, a Capuchin priest who argued Padre Pio's cause at the Vatican, believes the Pope was impressed by the way the monk endured a life of pain without complaint.

"The Pope was struck above all by the spiritual figure of a man who had a strong experience of God, who prayed, suffered in silence, and obeyed his superiors with faith," he says.

Miracles

Today, millions of Catholics around the world invoke the name of Padre Pio in their prayers, and stories about his healing powers continue.


Images of the new saint are everywhere

In Scotland, Frank and Maureen O'Connor were in despair after being told their baby daughter Danielle had a fatal illness.

A stranger told them to pray to Padre Pio, and her condition improved. That was in 1993; their daughter is now 11 and still very much alive.

The Vatican asked for details of her case when it was looking for evidence of miracles, and deciding whether the monk should be made a saint.

It is a remarkable transformation for a man frowned on by previous popes.

To endure decades of speculation and rumours, and retain his faith, Padre Pio must truly have had the patience of a saint.

Now, in front of thousands of people, the Pope has made that designation official. "
 
If the Vatican was to get on the TV and claim that there was a potential saint creating miracles that would perhaps get Randi to comment.

Went on air on Italian TV with record audience
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276385/

http://www.teleradiopadrepio.it/eng/

" A new TV station has been launched in Italy, dedicated to the life of the controversial monk Padre Pio.
Capuchin Franciscan Friars have started the service in a bid to get the padre known throughout the world. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/1814436.stm
 
The problem with healing seems to me to be that people beat medical odds all the time. My grandmother's cancer went into spontaneous remission so often it practically had frequent flyer miles. The human body is weird, and sometimes people get lucky (and then again, sometimes they get really unlucky, too.) How can you possibly determine what's a surprising medical miracle, and what's a genuine, honest-to-God churchy miracle? Barring angels appearing and thundering "FEAR NOT, BRIEF MORTALS!" there's no proof of divine intervention to try and disprove.
 
The problem with healing seems to me to be that people beat medical odds all the time.

Exactly. And they give the credit to whoever or whatever they were trying at the time, whether it's prayer or whatever. The problem is we don't hear about all the people who do the same thing and get worse.
 
The problem with healing seems to me to be that people beat medical odds all the time. My grandmother's cancer went into spontaneous remission so often it practically had frequent flyer miles. The human body is weird, and sometimes people get lucky (and then again, sometimes they get really unlucky, too.) How can you possibly determine what's a surprising medical miracle, and what's a genuine, honest-to-God churchy miracle? Barring angels appearing and thundering "FEAR NOT, BRIEF MORTALS!" there's no proof of divine intervention to try and disprove.

Exactly. And they give the credit to whoever or whatever they were trying at the time, whether it's prayer or whatever. The problem is we don't hear about all the people who do the same thing and get worse.

I did not say that I believe that the " miracle " healings are, indeed, " miracles ", my question is why Randi is not talking about them
 
Last edited:
I did not say that I believe that the " miracle " healings are, indeed, " miracles ", my question is why Randi is not talking about them
Because he mostly concentrate on scammer and truly dellusionned people. Let me clarify. In the case of the so called medical miracle, most of the time it is not that they are unexplainable, it is more that they can be explained in many way and that the only way to really sort it out would be to make many analyze and/or vivisect the person... A waste of resource. Also please note that most of the time for those so called miracle there is no such deep analyze done, only mostly opinion given by doctor, then reported down by somebody else or in the worst case scenario, year after, or even 10's of years after. 1960's is way way way back in the past speaking of medical explanation. So this would be a WASTE of resource by randi to try to examinate such AFTER the fact data, the NOT REPRODUCIBLE so called miracle.

Furthermore make a reality check : HOW MANY so called miracle is there per year ? Now picture the number of people getting ill. Let us think that the probability of spontaneous remission based on their immune/health system is a normal population. I bet you would then expect a poisson curve which is centered depending on the illness (grave illness : centered on low value for low probability of immune system fighting succesfully, common cold would be centered on the highier value of spontaneous remission). The gist of it is that no matter the curve, out of a big population, you will have people on the less populated part of the curve. In other word a few people will die of common cold, and a few people will spontaneously remiss of cancer. I can see people speaking of miracle in case of remiss, but then what do they call dying of common cold ? A not-so-good miracle ? The work of Satan ? This is pure middle age here.

So Randi instead concentrate himself on what can reliably be tested/falsified : people which claim they can do AT WILL something (cloud bursting, transmit thougth or whatever) and this something is not explanable by contemporain scientific knowledge. In other word the scammer and desillusionned. And I personally think this is the right way since this is the only testable population.
 
Because he mostly concentrate on scammer and truly dellusionned people.

I think Randi believes " religious people " are also what you call " truly delusioned people "

Let me clarify. In the case of the so called medical miracle, most of the time it is not that they are unexplainable, it is more that they can be explained in many way and that the only way to really sort it out would be to make many analyze and/or vivisect the person...

This is not what the Vatican Medical Committees have concluded

A waste of resource. Also please note that most of the time for those so called miracle there is no such deep analyze done,

Again, there are medical committees evaluating medical reports.
This, for many people, is what w may call a " deep analysis "

So this would be a WASTE of resource by randi to try to examinate such AFTER the fact data, the NOT REPRODUCIBLE so called miracle.

Not reproducible does not mean much.
You can still study and evaluate the reports

Furthermore make a reality check : HOW MANY so called miracle is there per year ? Now picture the number of people getting ill. Let us think that the probability of spontaneous remission based on their immune/health system is a normal population. I bet you would then expect a poisson curve which is centered depending on the illness (grave illness : centered on low value for low probability of immune system fighting succesfully, common cold would be centered on the highier value of spontaneous remission). The gist of it is that no matter the curve, out of a big population, you will have people on the less populated part of the curve. In other word a few people will die of common cold, and a few people will spontaneously remiss of cancer. I can see people speaking of miracle in case of remiss, but then what do they call dying of common cold ? A not-so-good miracle ? The work of Satan ? This is pure middle age here.

" pure middle age " that involves several millions or, better, several tens of millions of people.
That is, the number of people who may believe in the " miracles ".
Quite worth a commentary by Randi, I think..

So Randi instead concentrate himself on what can reliably be tested/falsified : people which claim they can do AT WILL something (cloud bursting, transmit thougth or whatever) and this something is not explanable by contemporain scientific knowledge. In other word the scammer and desillusionned. And I personally think this is the right way since this is the only testable population.

Randi does not focus only on claims which can reliably be tested/falsified: see for esxample the claim on the Time Machine here: http://www.randi.org/jr/070502.html
Many of the commentaries by Randi are directed towards claims which can not be tested/falsified
 
This is not what the Vatican Medical Committees have concluded

At the risk of being flippant, well, whoopty-do for the Vatican Medical Commitee!

Again, there are medical committees evaluating medical reports.
This, for many people, is what w may call a " deep analysis "

Not reproducible does not mean much.
You can still study and evaluate the reports

And what would studying reports prove? "Yup, they went into spontaneous remission. Wacky." There's no report by any medical body I've ever heard of that can prove "Oh, hey, angels did this!" The absolute best that you could get from a medical report would be "Unexplained and unexpected remission." That doesn't prove ANYTHING about causes. It could be God or demons or aliens or fuzzy pink unicorns or the FSM. There is no test for the residue of a miracle!

The only claim that these people made which one could determine from reports is "I went into remission." There is no way to prove the ultimate REASON for remission, and thus determine whether that reason is indeed supernatural.

Here's a question for you--how would you construct a conclusive test of whether a spontaneous remission was caused by miracle vs by some other source, including plain dumb luck?
 

Back
Top Bottom