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Questions about Insulin?

Kumar

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Oct 13, 2003
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14,259
Hello all,

(Let me try again, if we can be some really productive.)

Can you contribute to questions posted at folowing link;-

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=46884

In addition, I have more questions for you:-

..4. How can C-peptide & Insulin tests tell the whole story about diabetes & insulin resistance during (a) No treatment but with diabetes T2 or IR (b) Treatment by oral diabetic medicines & injected insulin?

5. What does it indicate?
MannKind has presented new data on its inhaled insulin product that suggest it may not only make dosing the drug more convenient, but also improve efficacy compared to insulin injections

MannKind inhaled insulin 'mimics natural release'

6. What does it also indicate?

Over the years pharmaceutical laboratories have developed increasingly reliable and stable insulin preparations but have not succeeded in producing a satisfactory formulation in which insulin acts rapidly enough to match the increase in blood sugar levels during a meal. The basis of slow release into the blood is simple. Insulin is generally injected as the hexameric cluster of molecules, the stable form of the protein when it is stored in the body. Unfortunately this cluster is too big to move quickly through tissues and it takes time for the clusters to dissolve and free the individual molecules which are small enough to get through tissues quickly. Thus while the hexameric cluster which has evolved to be stable in the insulin producing cells is useful for producing well behaved clinical preparations, it cannot produce a rapid insulin action when injected into a muscle.

An obvious solution to this dilemma would be to inject single insulin molecules, but there is no easy way to prepare them by the established chemical and pharmacological methods - single molecules are unstable and rapidly form hexamers.
http://www.nimr.mrc.ac.uk/MillHillEssays/1998/diabetes.htm

Rest you know & take care as usual.:)

Best wishes.
 
I think Kumar has already had the answers to all or most of these, but since some of them may be of general interest, let's recap:


Kumar said:
(Let me try again, if we can be some really productive.)

"We" can be productive, Kumar. The question is, can YOU?

(Can you contribute to questions posted at folowing link;-

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=46884

I have folowing questions about insulin--natural and injected:-)


1. What is the difference between natural & injected insulin(endogenous & exogenous) in their chemistry & effects? Whether chemical & structural formula of both are same & if yes, how these effect differently?

This depends on which injected insulin you use. There are a number of different types; animal-derived, synthezised human insulin, and the new analogues. There are slight differences in the structure and content. Generally, the newest tend to cause fewer instances of allergy, etc.

2. Is it true: "Injected insulin is more likely to disapate as it should in the proper times because its not resistant like a diabetic Type2's impaired insulin."

I have not heard of such an effect. Do you have a source?

Means, whether natural insulin in type2 is impaired due to IR, whereas injected insulin is not & therefore is effective?

No, whatever it means, that is not it. The main problem with insulin resistance is that the body cells have lost some of their ability to use insulin of any kind. However, the effect of insulin is partly dose-dendent, so injecting extra insulin may temporarily counteract insulin resistance.

Whether injected insulin doesn't cause insulin resistence
whereas oral insulin promoting medicines can?

Neither can cause insulin resistance, but it is suspected that constant high levels of insulin in the blood can speed up the progress of insulin resistance.

3. Excess insulin in blood can mean "hyperinsulinemia" & it can be a common condition in type2 with IR patients.

Type 2 diabetes is defined as a condition that is characterized by more or less progressed insulin resistance. In the early stages, the body copes by releasing extra insulin, so in the early stages of an untreated type 2 diabetes, high insulin levels are common.


Will a diabetic patient get complications related to "hyperinsulinemia" or not, as his insulin levels may remain always in excess?

A known complication is that insulin production suffers in the long run; after a time (usually years), the insulin production cannot cope any longer and drops off.

A putative complication is that consistent high insulin levels may increase the insulin resistance.


This excess insulin can be due to natural reasons with out medications AND by medications---Natural; prediabetes, type2 with IR, Medicated; insulin promoting medicines & injected insulin.

As you can see, the body's natural reaction to insulin resistance is short-sighted: It helps right away, but in the long run makes the disease worse.

My main question is that, whether injected insulin can cause or add to insulin resistence or not AND whether oral insulin promoting medicines can cause or add to IR or not?

Cause, no, because excess insulin in a person that does not have insulin resistance will cause a hypogluchaemic condition. Therefore, insulin resistance must always come first. Add to, maybe. As I told you, there is a suspicion that this is the case. Obviously, it is difficult to experiment with this.

In addition, I have more questions for you:-

..4. How can C-peptide & Insulin tests tell the whole story about diabetes & insulin resistance during (a) No treatment but with diabetes T2 or IR (b) Treatment by oral diabetic medicines & injected insulin?

It cannot tell the whole story. Diabetes is a complex condition, and many factors are needed to get the whole story of each patient; lipids, kidney condition, BP, and more. A good diabetes center will make a long row of tests and examinations.

Again it is not type 2 OR insulin resistance, it is AND.

The choice between oral medicine and injected insulin (for type 2) depends on whether the individual patient is producing sufficient insulin. As long as this is the case, you will treat with oral medicine only. As the disease progresses, the insulin production falls off, and must be supplemented.


5. What does it indicate?
(inhaled insulin)

One might say that inhaled insulin is distributed quicker to the blood-stream. However, the claim that the efficacy is better is dubious. For instance, much larger doses are needed with this method.

The main reason several companies are developing insulin inhalers remains the fact that many patients would go far to avoid self-injecting.


6. What does it also indicate?

It indicates that the reaction time to injected insulin is not quite optimal, however, that is not the main problem in insulin treatment. The main problem is to always match the body's very variable demand.

Rest you know & take care as usual.:)

Best wishes.

Hans
 
Kumar said:
Is it true: "Injected insulin is more likely to disapate as it should in the proper times because its not resistant like a diabetic Type2's impaired insulin." Means, whether natural insulin in type2 is impaired due to IR, whereas injected insulin is not & therefore is effective?
In diabetes of any type, it isn't the insulin itself that is impaired. It is either that the body can't produce enough insulin, or that (often in the case of type 2) the body's response to insulin is impaired. The insulin has the same structure as normal.
 
Cookies contain lots of sugar. Gotta be careful with that if you got diabetes. Hope that answers your questions kumar.
 
Ceaser: "Ah, Uborus, news from the front yet? Any word from Flappus Gummicus?"

Uborus (poised to utter as Ceaser nods off):

Ceaser (suddenly awakening): " *Yawn* Sorry. You were saying? Ah, no matter. Let us round up some evening company from the House of Mammalia.' (claps)

(Enter two women)

Ceaser: "Which would you have, Uborus? Perkatiticus or Lackatiticus? Never you mind. The answer is obvious. Come forward, Perkatiticus. Back to the waiting chamber with you, Lackatiticus."


Ceaser: "*Yawn* You were saying, Uborus?"
 
Re: Re: Questions about Insulin?

MRC_Hans said:
I think Kumar has already had the answers to all or most of these, but since some of them may be of general interest, let's recap:

Thanks for nice & clean reply.


This depends on which injected insulin you use. There are a number of different types; animal-derived, synthezised human insulin, and the new analogues. There are slight differences in the structure and content. Generally, the newest tend to cause fewer instances of allergy, etc.

Pls tell me the difference between synthezised human insulin/the new analogues and our endogenous insulin.

Is it true: "Injected insulin is more likely to disapate as it should in the proper times because its not resistant like a diabetic Type2's impaired insulin."

I have not heard of such an effect. Do you have a source?

It was replied to me at one sci.group, but unclear, but also dynamic thought.

No, whatever it means, that is not it. The main problem with insulin resistance is that the body cells have lost some of their ability to use insulin of any kind. However, the effect of insulin is partly dose-dendent, so injecting extra insulin may temporarily counteract insulin resistance.

You remeber carol at hapthy & other places indicated that our insulin become inferere in IR conditions. Anyway this can be thought that, if anything(insulin here) is excessivly exposed to our cells, & cells recognize that insuin, cells may opt for something not to accept action of that insulin to avoid hypoglymic severe effect. But if injected insulin is not recognized by cells, this insulin may then work. Now I am suspecting if oral insulin promoting medicines may be a reason for getting IR condition by promoting our insulin recognised by our cells.

Neither can cause insulin resistance, but it is suspected that constant high levels of insulin in the blood can speed up the progress of insulin resistance.

I previously suspected this "somewhat alike indigestion of insulin to cells". Do you know the theory behind "insulin in the blood can speed up the progress of insulin resistance"?

3. Excess insulin in blood can mean "hyperinsulinemia" & it can be a common condition in type2 with IR patients.

Type 2 diabetes is defined as a condition that is characterized by more or less progressed insulin resistance. In the early stages, the body copes by releasing extra insulin, so in the early stages of an untreated type 2 diabetes, high insulin levels are common.
A known complication is that insulin production suffers in the long run; after a time (usually years), the insulin production cannot cope any longer and drops off.

A putative complication is that consistent high insulin levels may increase the insulin resistance.[/b]

Many CV problems, atherosclerosis (most heart problems related to diabetes) are related to hyperinsulinemia. Major reason is that excess insulin will convert sugar into lipids, increase weight & cause CV problems.


As you can see, the body's natural reaction to insulin resistance is short-sighted: It helps right away, but in the long run makes the disease worse.

If it comes out at one day that medicines or injected insulin leads to IR then these medications can be considered as responsible for IR & worsening of diabetes--probably. Many thoughts indicate alike it.

Cause, no, because excess insulin in a person that does not have insulin resistance will cause a hypogluchaemic condition. Therefore, insulin resistance must always come first. Add to, maybe. As I told you, there is a suspicion that this is the case. Obviously, it is difficult to experiment with this.

Yes, that is right but IR can be triggered since pre-diabetes stage, on ocassional, irregular & excessive eating habits due to predisposition to that. This will lead to excess & irregular insulin secretions SO can cause IR condition. Medications with temporary controlling BG, may add to IR.

In addition, I have more questions for you:-

It cannot tell the whole story. Diabetes is a complex condition, and many factors are needed to get the whole story of each patient; lipids, kidney condition, BP, and more. A good diabetes center will make a long row of tests and examinations.Again it is not type 2 OR insulin resistance, it is AND. T
he choice between oral medicine and injected insulin (for type 2) depends on whether the individual patient is producing sufficient insulin. As long as this is the case, you will treat with oral medicine only. As the disease progresses, the insulin production falls off, and must be supplemented.



Just consider, When no medications: Insulin test & C-peptide tests can tell our insulinin blood. If excess, it can indicate IR, if low then type2/IDDM. When on medicines: C-peptide can tell our insulin & Insulin test can tell total insulin. Elevated C-peptide here can mean IR where lower type2/IDDM. Insulin test will tell total Insulin including injected one, if elevated can tell hyperinsulinemia. If we can know all these in early stages, an't it cover every basic story of diabetes?


One might say that inhaled insulin is distributed quicker to the blood-stream. However, the claim that the efficacy is better is dubious. For instance, much larger doses are needed with this method.

The main reason several companies are developing insulin inhalers remains the fact that many patients would go far to avoid self-injecting.


How can be think somewhat cephalic type effect & ingestion of insulin in monomeric/single/diluted form?


It indicates that the reaction time to injected insulin is not quite optimal, however, that is not the main problem in insulin treatment. The main problem is to always match the body's very variable demand.

Pls think about concentration of molecules & structure of molecules in this regards. Can concentration of insulin in crystal form & not coming into monomer form be a reson of IR & T2?

Furthur to above, I am also thinking about water blocks, Na/K ATP pump problem, mucus blocks etc in this regard.

What mucus deposits & its blocks can effect to absorption of sugar? One thought indicated more sugar absorption by this mucus other less absorption of it & other minerals etc. Mostly it should result more absorption of sugar but less of other nutrients.
 
Donks said:
Does that mean that you'll do likewise?

Atleast will not act/initiate, but still can react. Anyhow, I will try my best to be beneficial to each other, not just pass time or have fun or spoil our relations. Pl understand it
 
Re: Re: Re: Questions about Insulin?

Thanks for nice & clean reply.

Ask a clean question, and you wil lget a clean reply.

Pls tell me the difference between synthezised human insulin/the new analogues and our endogenous insulin.

You wouldn't understand the explanation.

Is it true: "Injected insulin is more likely to disapate as it should in the proper times because its not resistant like a diabetic Type2's impaired insulin."

It was replied to me at one sci.group, but unclear, but also dynamic thought.

No, it doesn't make sense. Forget it.


You remeber carol at hapthy & other places indicated that our insulin become inferere in IR conditions.

Carol doesn't know what she is talking about.

Anyway this can be thought that, if anything(insulin here) is excessivly exposed to our cells, & cells recognize that insuin, cells may opt for something not to accept action of that insulin to avoid hypoglymic severe effect. But if injected insulin is not recognized by cells, this insulin may then work. Now I am suspecting if oral insulin promoting medicines may be a reason for getting IR condition by promoting our insulin recognised by our cells.

You are wrong. How many times do I have to repeat: Insulin resistance comes before excess insulin. If you can't understand it, learn it by heart.

I previously suspected this "somewhat alike indigestion of insulin to cells". Do you know the theory behind "insulin in the blood can speed up the progress of insulin resistance"?

Not in details. You wouldn't understand it anyway.

3. Excess insulin in blood can mean "hyperinsulinemia" & it can be a common condition in type2 with IR patients.

Many CV problems, atherosclerosis (most heart problems related to diabetes) are related to hyperinsulinemia. Major reason is that excess insulin will convert sugar into lipids, increase weight & cause CV problems.

Nonsense. It is the elevated BG that causes the problems.

If it comes out at one day that medicines or injected insulin leads to IR then these medications can be considered as responsible for IR & worsening of diabetes--probably. Many thoughts indicate alike it.

Nonsense.


Yes, that is right but IR can be triggered since pre-diabetes stage, on ocassional, irregular & excessive eating habits due to predisposition to that. This will lead to excess & irregular insulin secretions SO can cause IR condition. Medications with temporary controlling BG, may add to IR.

Nonsense.

*snip*
How can be think somewhat cephalic type effect & ingestion of insulin in monomeric/single/diluted form?

Nonsense.

Pls think about concentration of molecules & structure of molecules in this regards. Can concentration of insulin in crystal form & not coming into monomer form be a reson of IR & T2?

No.

Furthur to above, I am also thinking about water blocks, Na/K ATP pump problem, mucus blocks etc in this regard.

What mucus deposits & its blocks can effect to absorption of sugar? One thought indicated more sugar absorption by this mucus other less absorption of it & other minerals etc. Mostly it should result more absorption of sugar but less of other nutrients.

Nonsense.

---------------

Kumar, you don't have a clue. Leave theorizing about diabetes mechanisms to the thousands of serious reseachers who are working with this worldwide.

Hans
 
Insulin resistance, a condition where the body cannot use the insulin it produces effectively, is a core metabolic dysfunction associated with type 2 diabetes and an increased risk for heart disease and stroke. Insulin resistance is associated with blood lipid imbalances, such as an increased ratio of small low-density lipoprotein (LDL or "bad" cholesterol), low levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL or "good" cholesterol), and increased levels of triglycerides, which cause atherosclerosis.http://www.s2mw.com/heartofdiabetes/resistance.html

Mr.Hans,

How this can happen other than excess insulin start converting glucose to fats instead of utilizing it.

Consistently high levels of insulin and glucose are linked to many harmful changes to the body, including:

(1) Damage to the lining of coronary and other arteries, a key step toward the development of heart disease or stroke

(2) Changes in the kidneys' ability to remove salt, leading to high blood pressure, heart disease and stroke

(3) An increase in triglyceride levels, resulting in an increased risk of developing cardiovascular disease

(4) An increased risk of blood clot formation, which can block arteries and cause heart attacks and strokes

(5) A slowing of insulin production, which can signal the start of type 2 diabetes, a disease that can increase your risk for a heart attack or stroke and may damage your eyes, nerves or kidneys

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/health/health-info/docs/3000/3057.asp?index=10783

How this can happens?

In diabetesT2 with IR, first & foremost goal of body system should be to protect body from hypoglycemic effects or from effectiveness of excess insulin, so IR, utilization in conversion to fats/lipids etc. Such conversion into fats/lipids can cause CVS problems.

Is it not true?

Macrovascular:

Coronary artery disease and ischemic heart disease is the most frequent cause of mortality in diabetic patients. The MRFIT study demonstrated that men with diabetes had a two to four-fold greater coronary heart disease mortality risk than non-diabetic men at any level of serum cholesterol. The protective effect of the premenopausal state on coronary heart disease risk is lost in women with diabetes. The etiology of the increased level of macrovascular disease is likely multi-factorial. Although there are no data from interventional trials, epidemiologic studies suggest that hyperglycemia is associated with increased macrovascular disease risk, and elevated HbA1c has been associated with both coronary events and mortality. Both insulin resistance and endogenous hyperinsulinemia are predictors of ischemic heart disease.
Dyslipidemia is common in patients with DM, with elevated VLDL and low HDL levels being the most characteristic lipid abnormality. In addition, Type II DM is associated with an increase in the number of coagulation factors, increased platelet aggregability and thromboxane release, as well as decreased fibrinolytic activity with increased levels of plasminogen activator inhibitor (PAI-1) and Lp(a).
http://www.cpmc.columbia.edu/whichis/private/aim/12DM.html

This one also.

Furthur, more or thick mucus in intestines may mean more sodium, so more glucose absorption via Na/K pump, where Na & glucose are co-transported.
 
Kumar said:
Mr.Hans,

How this can happen other than excess insulin start converting glucose to fats instead of utilizing it.
From your link:
Insulin resistance occurs when the body can't use insulin efficiently. To compensate, the pancreas releases more and more insulin to try to keep blood sugar levels normal. Gradually, the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas become defective and ultimately decrease in total number. As a result, blood sugar levels begin to rise, causing full-blown diabetes to develop.
Using only what is contained in your link (I'm not looking for alternate sources, just showing you what you decided not to use):
Body can't use insulin efficiently -> Pancreas produces more insulin -> Diabetes develops.

You somehow decided that excess insuline occurs before IR. Your own link says otherwise. Get other links or learn to read. Preferably both.
How this happens?
I will only comment on (5)
A slowing of insulin production, which can signal the start of type 2 diabetes, a disease that can increase your risk for a heart attack or stroke and may damage your eyes, nerves or kidneys
Again, from your first link:
To compensate, the pancreas releases more and more insulin to try to keep blood sugar levels normal. Gradually, the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas become defective and ultimately decrease in total number.
Do you even read the stuff you paste here?

Furthur, more or thick mucus in intestines may mean more sodium, so more glucose absorption via Na/K pump, where Na & glucose are co-transported.
Evidence? Neither of your links contain the word "mucus."
 
Kumar said:
I am allways productive unless reacting/provoked.
I don't like that laughing dog thingy, so I'll out-source.
common062.gif
 
Donks said:
From your link:

Using only what is contained in your link (I'm not looking for alternate sources, just showing you what you decided not to use):
Body can't use insulin efficiently -> Pancreas produces more insulin -> Diabetes develops.

You somehow decided that excess insuline occurs before IR. Your own link says otherwise. Get other links or learn to read. Preferably both.

I will only comment on (5)

Again, from your first link:

Do you even read the stuff you paste here?


Evidence? Neither of your links contain the word "mucus."

You can make your own dictionary. But we are trying to know; can complications in CVS system develop due to excess insulin levels NOT how diabetes in progressed. Just try to go bit deep.
 
Kumar said:
You can make your own dictionary.
I rather us something a bit more standard, like the OED. Or M-W.
But we are trying to know; can complications in CVS system develop due to excess insulin levels NOT how diabetes in progressed.
Who is this "we"? Why did you not only ignore the information in your own links, but contradict it?
Just try to go bit deep.
So should I just make stuff up to accomodate your views?
 
Kumar said:
How this can happen other than excess insulin start converting glucose to fats instead of utilizing it.
Apart from anything else, the quotation you posted is talking about altered ratios of different types of lipid, as well as simply increased levels, so there is evidently something more complicated going on than simply conversion of excess glucose to fat. This is also suggested by the third quotation you have put in the same post
The etiology of the increased level of macrovascular disease is likely multi-factorial.
i.e. there is something more complicated going on.

In addition, your quotation only says that "Insulin resistance is associated with blood lipid imbalances [etc.]." There is no indication in what you have posted that the lipid imbalances are actually caused by the insulin resistance or elevated blood sugar.

In any case, the high levels of blood sugar in diabetes is caused by the body's cells being unable to utilise glucose and convert it into forms in which it can be stored, such as glycogen or fat.
 
Kumar said:
Such conversion into fats/lipids can cause CVS problems.
Is it not true?

Furthur, more or thick mucus in intestines may mean more sodium, so more glucose absorption via Na/K pump, where Na & glucose are co-transported.


No. I never converted into fat lips and I'm therefore not aware of any connection to CVS. When I checked my mucus this morning the tiny little Na/K pump needed a battery change. Other than that, no probs.

Hope that helps.

PS. Please refrain from RSTT/RUTT in future.
 

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