Question for Veterinarians

[Loon]

Hi folks.

There are several stray cats that live outside the boarding house in which I reside. They first showed up as kittens about a year ago. Seeing as they're cute and helpless, we started feeding them.

I've generally been giving them standard cat food. Someone else in the house has been giving them people food.

He and I have argued about it several times and I've been meaning to ask our resident experts. So now that time has come (a quick Google showed me nothing immediately authoritative).

It is his contention that the catfood (standard Japanese stuff) I am feeding them is only snackfood (equivalent to popcorn or cookies) and that it therefore not good for them to subsist on this stuff. Further, he contends that they get bored of the standard catfood and that eating the same thing every day is not healthy for them.

I am of the opinion that the catfood is formulated to be all the cats really need, so there is no harm in the cats eating it every day. They seem to like it, though he is of the opinion that they only eat it because they are hungry.

I don't think that "people" food is bad for them, but I'll be stuffed if I'm going to go to the store to buy fish for the kitties when they are hungry instead of giving them the food that is right there. He gets mad at me when I feed them the cat food.

Assuming we go with people food the whole way or most of the way, are there any things to be sure the cats get or avoid?

He's currently feeding them rice mixed with meat or fish. Often in the mornings the cats' bowls are full of rice mixed with meat from the night before, which indicates that they do not like the stuff.

I'm tempted to let the cats' health deteriorate as he feeds them random stuff from the store whenever he feels like it, which is what I think will happen, but I don't want the cats to suffer.

Feel free to respond in PM or in thread or both. I would also appreciate links or book refernces that I can use to find out where the truth lies and, if necessary, proove my point.

Also, with cats under one year of age, how important is it to feed them kitten chow instead of cat chow?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bowser]

Loon, thanks for your concern about the cats. You might want to search for an animal-based or veterinary web site. I can't think of them off-hand, but there are certainly sites that seem to have good recipes for home-prepared food for either cats or dogs and explain the reasoning behind them.

I have no idea what the quality of commercial cat food is in Japan. We certainly have horror stories here in the states, although that hasn't caused me to make the leap to the inconvenient world of home preparation yet. To a degree, yes, you are correct that the commercial foods are probably far better balanced. The quality of the food stock can be pretty bad. In this case I think the stray cats are lucky to get anything, and they are probably (I hope) supplementing the food from somewhere else.

Taurine (an amino acid) is one of the key ingredients you need to make sure that cats get. I vaguely understand it is available in *raw* meats, but you'd have to research that. Don't know about raw fish.

Although cats have a very high need for protein, just carbs and protein probably isn't enough. They may need vegetables mixed in as well for the other vitamins and minerals. People food wouldn't be bad for them at all, rather more likely very high quality, the question would be balance.

I don't think I buy the idea that stray cats would get bored with the food you give them, especially if they are not altogether sure the food will be there for them. They can be very opportunistic when necessary.

(Oh, and sorry, I'm not a veterinarian, but I do like kitties...)

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think that "people" food is bad for them, but I'll be stuffed if I'm going to go to the store to buy fish for the kitties when they are hungry instead of giving them the food that is right there.

That rather sums up my opinion.

First, look at the labelling of the cat food you have. Does it say it's only meant as a snack, or does it say it's a complete food? If the latter (and if it's in fairly big bags rather than small packets that is probably the case) then carry right on. If the manufacturer is at all reputable it will be properly balanced for the nutrients cats need, and this is a much easier solution than trying to balance a home-made diet yourself.

Some human food on top of this isn't going to hurt of course, but cats don't tend to like or need large amounts of vegetable-based carbohydrates in their ration. Fish, yes; rice, probably not.

It's possible the cats are also subsisting by hunting, and if they have whole mouse or bird in their ration then that will also ensure that essentials (such as arachidonic acid and the infamous taurine) are included. It's unlikely that feral cats will get bored with a free handout which is always the same - apart from anything else, there's always the mouse and bird option!

Has anyone thought about trapping and neutering? It's nice to have a small colony of cats around, but a good food supply tends to turn that into a large colony which can become a nuisance unless appropriate steps are taken.

Rolfe, MRCVS.

 

[BPSCG]

Re: Re: Question for Veterinarians

First, look at the labelling of the cat food you have. Does it say it's only meant as a snack, or does it say it's a complete food? If the latter (and if it's in fairly big bags rather than small packets that is probably the case) then carry right on.

I'm not a vet, but...

I recently had occasion to look at the nutrition labels on a box of Tender Vittles, which is supposed to be a complete and balanced food, and a bag of kitty treats (I forget which brand).

They were nearly identical. First four or five ingredients were exactly the same, the breakdowns of protein, fats, and carbs were identical. It was only when you got down into the unpronounceable ingredients with names like chlorohydropolyrazzmatazz-60 that you started to see differences.

Other big difference: The treat food bag said to give your kitty up to six pieces a day - a lot less than the Tender Vittles. I suspect this is entirely a marketing gimmick to sell Tender Vittles as a kitty treat for three or four times what you sell it for as a complete meal.

FWIW, I've been feeding my cats nothing but dry food for 25 years. I vary what I feed them so they don't get bored - I have at least three different varieties in the house at any given time. People food? Yeah, I let them lick the can and the mixing bowl when I make some tuna salad.

Isolde died in 1990 at the age of 14. Bandit died a couple of months ago at 15. Both of them were healthy and active until a couple of months before they died. Bluto is still being a pain in the butt at 12. So if dry food is bad for the cats, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

 

[Rolfe]

I think you can usually tell - for a start the treats tend to come in small packets, and as you say, they're often disgustingly expensive. Anything sold in big bags at a reasonable price is probably intended as a complete food.

Dry foods are formulated as complete diets and have been shown to be fine as maintenance diets. I think this is quite a good idea for food that's to be left out for ferals in a hot climate, as it won't go rotten and attract flies the way canned or fresh food will. And if the kitties fancy a bit of variety, well, like I said, hunting will supply that. Do make sure they have access to water too, though.

Rolfe.

 

[Segnosaur]

Not a vet, but I've heard a few things:

- Don't worry about 'mixing up' your cat's diet. Bordom should not be an issue; however, changing food types can upset the cat's digestion. (If you do change food types, do it gradually; i.e. blend in some of the old and new food over the course of a few days.)

- A diet of mostly dry food is best (as well as cheapest). Canned food isn't necessarily bad, but from what I understand, it contains a lot of moisture that will make the cats feel full without giving them all the nutrients they need.

- Don't feed just dry food; make sure you give some wet food, especially with male cats. Otherwise, urinary tract problems can result

- Feeding people food to animals is perhaps not the best thing to do; people food may have more fat/salt/other junk in the diet than the cat is used to

I have a cat. Its around 15 or 16 years old, and still going. I keep its dish full of 'senior maintenance' dry food, and feed it part of a can of wet food once or twice a day.

 

[Rolfe]

When you're considering leaving (supplemantary) food out for ferals, in a hot climate, I think a complete formulated dry diet sounds pretty ideal, so long as they also have free access to clean water.

I'm just worried they'll like it so much they'll breed like rabbits and you'll be over-run with them!

Rolfe.

 

[Bowser]

If food is being left out, then I agree dry food plus water would be sensible. However, around here it isn't advisable to leave food out all the time. It attracts a variety of wild animals that you wouldn't want, including ones that could prey on the cats. Depends, I suppose, on what kind of schedule these cats are on and whether they can tolerate the presence of people while the food is being put out.

 

[Agammamon]

I'm not a veterinarian, but I often play one on tv.

That said, you can tell your house-mate that if the food you're giving them is only intended as a snack food and he's giving them the proper stuff, then there shouldn't be any harm. They get what they need to live and a variety and no-one has to foot the whole bill.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Recently I attended a talk on lower unrinary tract disease given by a Hills (petfood) vet. He made a very good point that the choice of petfood is essentially a lifestyle decision, whether it is meat and biscuit, all dry or the recently fashionable 'raw food' diet. My animals have all made it well into their teens on a range of commercial dry foods, with bits and pieces of canned meat.

Anyone who knows the Hills range of presrciption diets will know they are all called 'something'/d (e.g. k/d= kidney diet) and he said that cats are evolve to eat m/d, and that by keeping them as pets we are forced to make a choice to feed them something other than m/d.

m/d?

Mouse/Diet!

Just remember that, unlike dogs, cats are obligate carnivores, which no one else has made explicit thus far. This is the reason behind their dependence on dietary taurine.

BSM MA VetMB PhD MRCVS, but Rolfe may well have more letters if she chooses to show them off!

 

[Rolfe]

BSM MA VetMB PhD MRCVS, but Rolfe may well have more letters if she chooses to show them off!

Only the ones you get by knowing the right people (if you don't understand this, the reference is hidden deep in the Bioelectromechanics thread, though I think in fact Roger finally decided I was actually the Blessed Virgin Mary).

Rolfe.

 

[Wyvern]

Re: Re: Question for Veterinarians

Has anyone thought about trapping and neutering? It's nice to have a small colony of cats around, but a good food supply tends to turn that into a large colony which can become a nuisance unless appropriate steps are taken.

Rolfe, MRCVS.

I'd like to emphasize what Rolfe said about getting the cats neutered. You would be amazed at how fast a colony of feral cats can grow. And that's really not the life meant for a domesticated cat.

Don't know how progressive Japan is WRT caring for feral cats, but you can try searching the internet for non-profit organizations that will do TNR. That's trap, neuter, return. Some organizations may do the trapping, while others do the spaying and neutering either for free or at a steep discount. Or a place that will do the spay/neuter may give you instructions on how to do the trapping. The cats are then returned safely to the colony. Since it's not a huge colony yet, I think you could do this yourself, or with the other guy's help. Please think about it.

 

[ktesibios]

Couldn't agree more about the spaying/neutering. A local vet might be able to put you on to resources for low-cost s/n.

BTW, I've adopted a few kittens over the years, and my vet has been quite emphatic that they should have food formulated for kittens until they reach 1 year old.

He doesn't recommend any specific product- just commercial kitten food from a reputable manufacturer.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Question for Veterinarians

You would be amazed at how fast a colony of feral cats can grow.

Remember, this is Japan we are talking about. Do you mean we might create Godzilla-kitties?


Oh, ah, no....probably just a large colony of cats, not a colony of large cats. Pity.

 

[Loon]

Thanks for all the replies.

So it seems that a diet of regular dried food all the time is fine for the cats, as long as they get enough water. Is this correct?

But occasional people food won't hurt them. Is this correct?

At least one of the kitties is an avid insect hunter. She seems to enjoy the flavor of roach. Sort of the more urban version of the mouse diet.

And these are both agreed to by at least two people with all sorts of impressive letters after their names and lots of years studying real veterinary medicine?


Excellent.


I totally agree on the spay/neuter thing. The hard parts are
1. finding a place to get it done
2. Getting the kitties there
3. Caring for them while they recover.

Any suggestions for these last 2?

Also, we think one had kittens recently. They are part of a larger colony of cats at the nearby hospital.

We have become their main souce of food (from one to three of them comes up to me and says "feed me" in cat language every night when I get home).

Not sure about Catzilla thing. The brother kitty is starting to get big, but the other two are sorta small. And the idea of them being big enough to eat me is the same as the idea of them actually eating me...

 

[Rolfe]

So it seems that a diet of regular dried food all the time is fine for the cats, as long as they get enough water. Is this correct?

But occasional people food won't hurt them. Is this correct?

At least one of the kitties is an avid insect hunter. She seems to enjoy the flavor of roach. Sort of the more urban version of the mouse diet.

And these are both agreed to by at least two people with all sorts of impressive letters after their names and lots of years studying real veterinary medicine?

Yup.

I totally agree on the spay/neuter thing. The hard parts are
1. finding a place to get it done
2. Getting the kitties there
3. Caring for them while they recover.

Any suggestions for these last 2?

If you can find somewhere to get it done, they will be able to advise on the other two I think. You can get live traps suitable for collecting cats for this exercise, and you can take them to the surgery in the trap. It's sort of a large baited cat basket with a one-way entrance.

The boys don't need much aftercare, although a shot of long-acting antibiotic is a good idea. The surgery may well be prepared to keep the girls in overnight, which will help. But it's surprising how quickly they bounce back, I've had newly-spayed queens do in their stitches climbing trees the day after the operation. The main problem is suture removal, and the usual trick is to use absorbable sututes on ferals so you don't need to remove them. So long as someone is observing the cats to make sure there isn't a wound breakdown. If there is, it might be necessary to re-trap that one. (I hope to goodness they do flank incisions, I wouldn't care to play that game with a midline incision.)

Hey, just be glad your only disagreement with your neighbour is on something so minor as diet! If you had a neighbour who wanted to shoot the critters on sight you'd have more to worry about.

By the way, if there is a big colony at the hospital, it's worth enquiring if there is already a neutering programme underway. Cat charities do that sort of thing, and if one is already involved things might be a great deal easier.

Rolfe.