Question for classically-educated forum members
- Thread starter JamesM
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Because English is even worse than Danish?JamesM said:
In Danish, we pronounce them 'Søvs, 'Te-søvs, and 'Pær-søvs..
On the other hand, don't even think about learning Danish. It's easier to find a way of breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics...
Mr Manifesto
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The reason is because, somewhere along the line (I'll blame the Victorian era English because they @#$%ed up so many other pronounciations), someone decided to pronounce it "Zoos". In fact, it's supposed to be pronounced "Zey-oos". Remember, too, that the words were written with Greek characters, and "Zeus" is only an approximation.
You can tell a classics tosser by the way they pronounce Zeus. If they say 'Zey-oos', you have my permission to punch them in the mouth, although I did a little classics study myself and found it quite interesting.
You can tell a classics tosser by the way they pronounce Zeus. If they say 'Zey-oos', you have my permission to punch them in the mouth, although I did a little classics study myself and found it quite interesting.
UnrepentantSinner
A post by Alan Smithee
I'm still trying to supporess the urge to say Sinope, Caliope and a few other "ope" words with the long o, and not a short one.
(grumble, there's a "ope" word that means a lesson or exposition on a piece of literature - ripore is the last two syllables and I can't think of it or google for it.. grumble.. getting old..)
(grumble, there's a "ope" word that means a lesson or exposition on a piece of literature - ripore is the last two syllables and I can't think of it or google for it.. grumble.. getting old..)
Maybe because you are barbarians
In ancient Greek Zeus, Perseus and Theseus are pronounced with in the way Zeus is pronounced with the stress in the last syllable. I do not know why in English they are pronounced in a different way.
I think that Mad Linguist is your man
In ancient Greek Zeus, Perseus and Theseus are pronounced with in the way Zeus is pronounced with the stress in the last syllable. I do not know why in English they are pronounced in a different way.
I think that Mad Linguist is your man
UnrepentantSinner
A post by Alan Smithee
Well if I say Sin-oh-pee it sounds like a bad kindergarden joke...
Not to say anything of Ae-nee-ass...
What a juvenille "classical" language...
Not to say anything of Ae-nee-ass...
What a juvenille "classical" language...
JamesM said:
Do you want to read the top of the anomaly ?
The nouns in Greek are conjugated.
So, in the nominative we have Zefs
In the genitive, it goes Dios with the stress to the last syllable
Zefs
Dio's
Dii
Dia
Zeu
In modern Greek we use for the nominative the root from the genitive plus the ending of the nominative in modern Greek
Simple!!So the ancient Greek Zefs in modern Greek is pronounced Dias ( stress in the first syllable)
Don't you love this simple language?
US whats' your problem??
Well, in TAM II I will make you pronounce my last name.You have no idea...
Diamond, this is not true, we saw Hercules in Greece, we even see Zena but it's in the comedy section of TV. LOL
UnrepentantSinner
A post by Alan Smithee
Cleopatra said:US whats' your problem??
Well, in TAM II I will make you pronounce my last name.You have no idea...
{/flirt mode}
{totally serious mode}
I can take you babe.. those Mediterranian boys might cower, but I relish the lesson.
{o.k. probably still flirting mode}
{still in serious mode}
I've got an inch and 40kg on you girl.. so watch out.
{utterly serious mode}
I'm still not sure if I'm going to try and make TAM2. If you're going to be there, that's one more reason for me to try.
{/utterly serious mode}
btw, I'm a linguist wannabe... I just have a tongue more suited for other vocations..
The Mad Linguist
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OK... this is going to involve explaining glides...
Glides are sounds which can be either consonants or vowels, depending on context. English has two: w and y. These are equivalent to the vowels "oo" and "ee" respectively. (I'm laymanising this a bit.)
Try saying "oo-indow" or "ee-ellow" and you'll see what I mean.
Now, the original pronounciation of the "eu" vowels in the names in question is roughly "ee-oo" (roughly because the vowels get mispronounced slightly as you go from Classical Greek to English). Because of the fairly complex stress rules in English, "Zeus" (2 syllables) gets stressed differently to "Theseus" (3 syllables):
zee-oos
thee-see-oos
Now, because the "oo" in "Theseus" is unstressed, it gets shortened to "u". And because the second "ee" is unstressed, and there's another vowel after it, it's very liable to get even shorter and transform into the related consonant.
thee-si-us or even thees-yus
In Zeus, the "oo" stays long because it's stressed, and the "ee" before that changes into a "y" for the same reason:
zyoos
Which is how it's still pronounced in English accents. In American accents, a general change operated to delete "y" before "oo", leaving you with
zoos
The same rule operates in words such as "obtuse" (tyoos in England, toos in America), "tune", etc.
Now in Greek, it happened the other way: it was the "oo" that became a glide consonant - so it was something like "Zews". But "w" as a consonant is not very far from "v", and Greek shifted "w" to "v" (in the same way that German has done). Before a voiceless consonant such as "s", "v" changes to its voiceless counterpart "f". So:
e-oos --> ews --> evs --> efs
To make things even more complicated, "Z" in Classical Greek times was pronounced "zd". So the actual classical pronounciation of "Zeus" is probably something like "zday-oos". It's from a root meaning "shine": the words "Jove", "deity", "Tiw" (Norse war-god), "Dyaus" (old Hindu sky-god) are from the same root, which has led some to suggest that our Indo-European ancestors worshipped a pantheon headed by the god of the bright sky.
In answer to the original question: mythological names which have been naturalised as loan-words in English are probably best pronounced according to English rules, as long as we're clear that it's an English loanword we're using, not an actual Greek word. (So Zoos or Zyoos is fine.)
This is particularly the case because a lot of Greek names in English have passed through the filter of Latin first (so we have Uranus instead of Ouranos, for instance).
I've just about got used to this myself after worrying about it a lot when I was younger. My personal bugbear was always "Circe" pronounced as "sir-see" when it was more like "keer-kay" to start with. That one still makes me wince a bit.
Hope that answers the question.
Glides are sounds which can be either consonants or vowels, depending on context. English has two: w and y. These are equivalent to the vowels "oo" and "ee" respectively. (I'm laymanising this a bit.)
Try saying "oo-indow" or "ee-ellow" and you'll see what I mean.
Now, the original pronounciation of the "eu" vowels in the names in question is roughly "ee-oo" (roughly because the vowels get mispronounced slightly as you go from Classical Greek to English). Because of the fairly complex stress rules in English, "Zeus" (2 syllables) gets stressed differently to "Theseus" (3 syllables):
zee-oos
thee-see-oos
Now, because the "oo" in "Theseus" is unstressed, it gets shortened to "u". And because the second "ee" is unstressed, and there's another vowel after it, it's very liable to get even shorter and transform into the related consonant.
thee-si-us or even thees-yus
In Zeus, the "oo" stays long because it's stressed, and the "ee" before that changes into a "y" for the same reason:
zyoos
Which is how it's still pronounced in English accents. In American accents, a general change operated to delete "y" before "oo", leaving you with
zoos
The same rule operates in words such as "obtuse" (tyoos in England, toos in America), "tune", etc.
Now in Greek, it happened the other way: it was the "oo" that became a glide consonant - so it was something like "Zews". But "w" as a consonant is not very far from "v", and Greek shifted "w" to "v" (in the same way that German has done). Before a voiceless consonant such as "s", "v" changes to its voiceless counterpart "f". So:
e-oos --> ews --> evs --> efs
To make things even more complicated, "Z" in Classical Greek times was pronounced "zd". So the actual classical pronounciation of "Zeus" is probably something like "zday-oos". It's from a root meaning "shine": the words "Jove", "deity", "Tiw" (Norse war-god), "Dyaus" (old Hindu sky-god) are from the same root, which has led some to suggest that our Indo-European ancestors worshipped a pantheon headed by the god of the bright sky.
In answer to the original question: mythological names which have been naturalised as loan-words in English are probably best pronounced according to English rules, as long as we're clear that it's an English loanword we're using, not an actual Greek word. (So Zoos or Zyoos is fine.)
This is particularly the case because a lot of Greek names in English have passed through the filter of Latin first (so we have Uranus instead of Ouranos, for instance).
I've just about got used to this myself after worrying about it a lot when I was younger. My personal bugbear was always "Circe" pronounced as "sir-see" when it was more like "keer-kay" to start with. That one still makes me wince a bit.
Hope that answers the question.
One of my favorite sayings was "ah the benefits of a classical education" until I found out the bad guy says it in Die Hard.
How many times at work are you asked to translate Latin or ancient Greek? Sometimes I think the time I spent in school was wasted.
How many times at work are you asked to translate Latin or ancient Greek? Sometimes I think the time I spent in school was wasted.
The Mad Linguist
Critical Thinker
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SteveW said:
Once in the past three years. It was Latin, I don't speak a word of Latin so I asked a colleague!
Re: Re: Question for classically-educated forum members
On the other hand, don't even think about learning Danish. It's easier to find a way of breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics...
As someone once said (Churchill?), "If the Romans had to learn Latin, they'd never have had time to conquer the world."
On the other hand, don't even think about learning Danish. It's easier to find a way of breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics...
As someone once said (Churchill?), "If the Romans had to learn Latin, they'd never have had time to conquer the world."