Prop 75 question

Art Vandelay

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As I currently understand the situation, public employees in California have two options.

A. They can join the union, in which case they get to vote in union elections, but they have to pay union dues AND contribute to any political campaign that the union tells them to.

B. They can not join the union, in which case they can't be forced to contribute to political campaigns, but they don't get to vote in union elections AND they still have to pay union dues.

Is this correct?
 
As I currently understand the situation, public employees in California have two options.

A. They can join the union, in which case they get to vote in union elections, but they have to pay union dues AND contribute to any political campaign that the union tells them to.

B. They can not join the union, in which case they can't be forced to contribute to political campaigns, but they don't get to vote in union elections AND they still have to pay union dues.

Is this correct?

Whoa. How can someone be forced to pay union dues and NOT be in the union? I find that hard to believe to be true.

If it were true, I think it would be time for Californians to exercise their second amendment rights and start shooting union officials in the street like dogs.
 
Whoa. How can someone be forced to pay union dues and NOT be in the union? I find that hard to believe to be true.

That is extermely common.

In most states with large numbers of factories, all company employees at a given factory are governed by a single contract, and that contract is negotiated by the union that is elected by the employees as their designated agent. All employees who are represented by that agent have to pay that agent.

Courts have held, I believe including the US Supreme Court, that no one can be forced to actually join any association, including a union, as a condition of employment. However, they have also held that all those who are represented by a bargaining agent can be required to pay that bargaining agent. The theory is that all workers at a plant gain the "benefits" of union represenation, so they all have to pay for it.

In practice, there's also a lot of power politics, corruption, bribery, near-bribery and goodness knows what else that goes on, but that's the theory.

At any rate, the law is quite clear. If you work in a "closed shop", you can be forced to pay union dues.

Some states have banned this practice. In those states, you can't be forced to join a union or to pay union dues as a condition of employment. I don't know if the union still negotiates contracts for all workers in a plant in those states, or not.
 
The real issue is, IMO, largely being ignored. Republicans get vast amounts of campaign financing from corporations; and when anyone tries to limit those donations, the Republicans scream that their 1st Ammendment rights are being violated.

Democrats get much of their financing from the unions, so the 'Pubs are doing everything they can to prevent that from happening any longer, crippling the Dems campaign financing in the process; thus, the 'Pubs hope to gain control of the California Legislature.

Thats what this whole thing is really about. If anyone gave a ◊◊◊◊ about campaign reform, they would do it across the board (and I, for one, would wholeheartedly support it.)
 
Mark,

The situations are not strictly analogous: if I own stock in a company that supports political causes to which I object I can sell the stock; if a union to which I pay dues does the same, my recourse is to quit my job.

I can always invest elsewhere. Getting a new job - without crossing the union - may be a different thing entirely.
 
Mark,

The situations are not strictly analogous: if I own stock in a company that supports political causes to which I object I can sell the stock; if a union to which I pay dues does the same, my recourse is to quit my job.

I can always invest elsewhere. Getting a new job - without crossing the union - may be a different thing entirely.

It's a pretty fine line. If I work for a corporation, I have no recourse but to quit.

In any case, why not just implement serious campaign finance reform across the board? Problem solved, if that's what they really wanted. But it isn't what they want; they want to cripple the Democrats, and retain their own power base.
 
That should be pretty easy to prove.

And I have done so on other threads in the past. Both parties get corporate contributions, but the Republicans get way more overall.
 
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Whoa. How can someone be forced to pay union dues and NOT be in the union? I find that hard to believe to be true.

If it were true, I think it would be time for Californians to exercise their second amendment rights and start shooting union officials in the street like dogs.

I was told I could opt out of joining CSEA, but I'd still have to pay union dues. So I joined. But I'm not happy about it.
 
It's a pretty fine line. If I work for a corporation, I have no recourse but to quit.

Not so fine a line.

If you work for a corporation it is not your money being spent to a political end.

If you are in a union, or pay union dues, it is your money being spent to a political end.

A big difference.

In any case, why not just implement serious campaign finance reform across the board? Problem solved, if that's what they really wanted. But it isn't what they want; they want to cripple the Democrats, and retain their own power base.

You figure out how to implement campaign finance reform without infringing on my right to free speech and free association and I will support it.
 
Art,
I can't speak for California, but that's pretty normal. Courts have held that unions have to separate out their political fundraising activities from their other activities.
Again, the theory is that the workers are paying the union for a service, which is the collective bargaining on behalf of the workers. However, some people pointed out that most funds raised by unions weren't used for that purpose. So, the courts said you could still be forced to pay that portion of union dues that were used on behalf of workers, but you could not be forced to pay that portion used in political activities.

Needless to say, unions try to use all sorts of Tom Delay - style activities to get around those laws, finding ways to do fundraising and support candidates while disguising it as supporting workers.

So what is Prop 75 about?
 
So what is Prop 75 about?

I believe it says that union members must give permission before union dues are spent in the political arena. My husband saw some people protesting outside of Planned Parenthood last weekend, who were against abortion (obviously) and in favor of 75. I would guess that they don't like union money going to pro-choice candidates.

Prop. 75 is one of four reform bills that the Governator is trying to push through.
 
Couldn't the union members just elect union officials that promised not to spend the dues on political activities? Why does the gov think a law is necessary?

That's shaping up as a big battle here in Michigan. A lot of union members are pointing out that a huge amount of union money is spent supporting losing or ineffective political candidates. Meanwhile, the workers are losing benefits, wages, and jobs.

Some members have been saying that if the union would focus on organizing workers, instead of voters, that they would be more effective.
 
Well, it's a reform pushed for by the Republican Governator. Some believe it is merely an effort to hamstring Democrat candidates, who get a lot of funding from unions. I haven't yet read enough about it to say if that's true or not.
 
The real issue is, IMO, largely being ignored. Republicans get vast amounts of campaign financing from corporations; and when anyone tries to limit those donations, the Republicans scream that their 1st Ammendment rights are being violated.
Ignored? Hah!

There are constant ads complaining about how this is about Dems vs. Reps. I find these ads (which are presumably paid for money stolen from union workers to begin with) to be very dishonest, as they claim that it slaps restrictions on public workers. LIE! It slaps restrictions on unions.

Thats what this whole thing is really about. If anyone gave a ◊◊◊◊ about campaign reform, they would do it across the board (and I, for one, would wholeheartedly support it.)
No one's claiming that this is about campaign finance reform. They're saying that it's about fairness. There simply isn't a fairness argument with regard to corporations.

Metullus
If you are in a union, or pay union dues, it is your money being spent to a political end.
It's worse than that. Remember, in order to get a public job, you have to pay union dues. Which means that, in the end, public money is being used to subsidize unions. Every taxpayer in California is essentially being forced to contribute to liberal causes.

Meadmaker
Again, the theory is that the workers are paying the union for a service, which is the collective bargaining on behalf of the workers. However, some people pointed out that most funds raised by unions weren't used for that purpose. So, the courts said you could still be forced to pay that portion of union dues that were used on behalf of workers, but you could not be forced to pay that portion used in political activities.
But if you're forced to give them money, then you should be allowed to vote in their elections, without having to give money to whatever they tell you to. It would be like if a city charged everyone property taxes, regardless of whether you vote. And if you want to actually vote on what the taxes should be, you have to first give money to the mayor's favorite charity. That would be declared unconstitutional in nothing flat. How is this different?

The anti-75 people keep saying that people can't be forced to join a union, but don't you agree that although this is technically true, in reality it's a load of crap? I find it incredibly disgusting that they're using public money to lie to the public.

Couldn't the union members just elect union officials that promised not to spend the dues on political activities?
Should 51% of the union workers be allowed to tell the other 49% what they should do with their money? The anti-75 position is that this is "Democracy", but it looks like thuggery to me. Also, keep in mind that anti-liberal workers are basically being blackmailed: "Yes, you could join the union and vote against spending union money on political campaigns, but you'll probably fail, and then we get to take your money. Or you could pay your dues, not join the union, sit down and shut the **** up".

Lisa Simpson
I believe it says that union members must give permission before union dues are spent in the political arena.
More precisely, it says unions of public workers can't spend money on politics without permission.
 
At any rate, the law is quite clear. If you work in a "closed shop", you can be forced to pay union dues.

[\quote]

wow, you guys still have closed shops? :jaw-dropp

i guess I'm going to ahve to revaluate yet annoterh of my prejudices :p
 
Well, it's a reform pushed for by the Republican Governator. Some believe it is merely an effort to hamstring Democrat candidates, who get a lot of funding from unions. I haven't yet read enough about it to say if that's true or not.

Of course it's true. If they wanted to solve the problem, they could pass campaign finance reform. Then the unions could NOT donate that much money. Neither could corporations...which would, of course, also handicap the Republicans so they aren't about to propose that. It was also loosen the hold that lobbyists have on our government...which none of the weasels in either party want to see.

This is nothing more than a blatant power grab (yet again) by the Republicans.
 
Of course it's true. If they wanted to solve the problem, they could pass campaign finance reform. Then the unions could NOT donate that much money. Neither could corporations...which would, of course, also handicap the Republicans so they aren't about to propose that. It was also loosen the hold that lobbyists have on our government...which none of the weasels in either party want to see.

This is nothing more than a blatant power grab (yet again) by the Republicans.

But it's not all the Unions, just public employee unions there's a very clear difference there.
 
Since I was forced to join the California School Employees Association, it would apply to me? My paychecks come from the Orange County Board of Education.
 
This is nothing more than a blatant power grab (yet again) by the Republicans.
That fixing an injustice will benefit a particular party hardly means that it is nothing more than a power grab. According to your logic, when Democrats try to keep blacks from being disenfranchised, that's "nothing more than a blatant power grab". It's the Democrats that are guilty of a blatant power grab, by forcing every Californian to support their agenda. The Republicans are simply trying to take that power away from them.

Your false dichotomy of "it must be either campaign finance reform, or nothing more than a power grab" is ridiculous. It's neither.
 

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