Problem of evil

[BJQ87]

There is more to consider in this "problem of evil" than one might think. I am praying that God will reveal more to me.

Yea, I know, this post is already screaming "fundy". Just to let you know, everything in this post presupposes that God exists. The problem of evil can be interpreted as saying "If God exists then..." so I can get away with this presupposition (did I make that word up?)

As I was standing on a rock one day I saw two trees, an ancient/dark looking one, and a young/green looking one. God created them both. It was very simple in that moment that God created both darkness and light- as opposed to the questioning. The tendency of doubting in ones heart when one sees the evil in this world that takes place.

Life is both good and bad. God created them both. What is a human being to do? Love God, or hate God? Worship God, or despise God? Or do we become perplexed and not know what to think?

I have a problem with people being so apt to place the blame on God for evil and give Him no credit for good. I have a problem with those who are in love with life hating the one who created it. It doesn't make any sense. Is it because people have very simple mindedly attatched an image of an almighty bully to God? I'd say pretty much, yea. The truth is that one who would make such a complex and amazing universe cannot be thought of in a simple minded way.

Do you love life?
Yes? Then why hate the one who created it?
No? Then =( for you.

(As a random side note- the bible says God is a mystery to man- and in revelation says that the mystery of God will one day be revealed. I am well aware that this probably frustrates most of you)

I think we focus too much on the good and the bad, and do not often enough realize that God created the life that holds both of these. I don't think we actualize the thought in our heads nearly enough that God created the part of our hearts that makes us love life. That the reason why we cry when a loved one dies is because God has put it in our hearts to love life. That the reason why one hates God is because God gave him the ability to make that choice.

Certainly the one who creates life can also take it away. That is the difference between me taking a life and God taking a life. God is the author of it, the one who writes the story. Certainly God is a mystery.

Throughout the book of Job those who answered Job and tried to defend God (using many classic examples that people use to this day to defend God) were wrong in what they said, and did not speak truth about God (as God had testified to).

As you may recall- after all of the events of the first 30 or so chapters- in reply to Job's questioning God says "I will question you, and you shall answer Me."

 

[madmonk76]

There was no option to vote : No, but it's all just a bunch of opinions based on your beliefs, which, while it's nice for you, is basically useless to me.

 

[BJQ87]

Ok I thought about it and I decided not to compromise my beliefs just because I know people on here will disagree with them. I actually don't believe God created evil, Satan did. How can God not have created evil and still be all-powerful? Simple- evil has no power, but is only weakness. God only created the option of evil- that exists as a result of turning from Him.

 

[Z]

If God creates both good and evil, then God is ambivalent towards morality. And if this is so, then faith in God should have no attached moral code, since God Himself is ambivalent towards morality. If God is the author of all, then your evils, hates, sins, etc. are also authored by Him; as such, you cannot be held individually responsible for your own morals, and once again, faith in God should mean a lack of morality.

Of course, your entire rant depends on a presupposition which, so far, is irrelevant, since evidence does not indicate the existence of a supreme creator God.

 

[BJQ87]

There was no option to vote : No, but it's all just a bunch of opinions based on your beliefs, which, while it's nice for you, is basically useless to me.

hey I've moved from useless to basically useless, I guess I am making progress!

 

[Z]

I actually don't believe God created evil, Satan did.

Did God create Satan?

 

[BJQ87]

Did God create Satan?

Yes. No reason to ask, the bible in which Satan is mentioned says so. Did God create you? Yes, and you chose to turn from Him as Satan had done. Do you wish God had not created you?

 

[Piscivore]

What exactly is "evil"?

I don't think there is any such thing, only value judgements by humans. There is no "evil" thing you can come up with that someone does not consider "good." And even though your bible does call some few things "abominations" and others "pleasing unto the lord", sometimes they contradict, and there are vastly more things it fails to comment on at all.

 

[Roboramma]

If god created satan then god created satan with the knowledge that satan would create evil. In effect, god created evil.

If someone creates a computer virus, they're respsonsible for the damage it does. In the same way, if god created satan, he too is responsible for the damage he does.

 

[Rufo]

I find the problem of evil interesting, but honestly not very good. Every time it comes up, it sounds like a little child complaining: "Now, God! I'm really upset with you! When I look at the world..." Blah blah blah, on and on and on, and what's so ridiculously obvious is that it doesn't matter what the world looks like, because the same people would complain anyway. It's always "Yes, I know a perfect world would be boring, but if God could just do the world a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better..."

Why bother?

I'm an agnostic, but the problem of evil isn't my problem. I basically agree with the OP, so I voted for the last option - good post, but I can't say it changed my views.

 

[Darat]

I find the problem of evil interesting, but honestly not very good. Every time it comes up, it sounds like a little child complaining: "Now, God! I'm really upset with you! When I look at the world..." Blah blah blah, on and on and on, and what's so ridiculously obvious is that it doesn't matter what the world looks like, because the same people would complain anyway. It's always "Yes, I know a perfect world would be boring, but if God could just do the world a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better..."

Why bother?

...snip...

So you think it is childish that people complain about the millions who died and otherwise suffered during the Holocaust? Or the thousands of children being abused by adults? Or that 15 year old Michael McIlveen was murdered for being Catholic?

I find it hard to consider complaints against a belief in a God that allowed that evil to exist the same as a little child complaining.

 

[Rufo]

So you think it is childish that people complain about the millions who died and otherwise suffered during the Holocaust? Or the thousands of children being abused by adults? Or that 15 year old Michael McIlveen was murdered for being Catholic?

I find it hard to consider complaints against a belief in a God that allowed that evil to exist the same as a little child complaining.

I didn't say it's childish - that would be more than a bit stupid, since it's a problem that interests at least as many adults as children - what I said was that the way it's usually put it sounds childish.

My point is that if the Holocaust had not taken place, if the thousands of children had not been abused, if Michael had not been murdered, would there not be a problem of evil, just like the one we are discussing here? Of course there would, and there would always be unless the world was completely perfect. What I find so ridiculous is how people tend to argue that God could have made the world less evil (without taking away things like Free Will™) and that this would be all right, but not the world as it is.

Of course, if you do think God should have created a world that was completely perfect, things get more complicated.

 

[Anacoluthon64]

...snip...
I actually don't believe God created evil, Satan did.
...
God only created the option of evil- that exists as a result of turning from Him.

Your argument is vacuous. Apart from the fact that, as pointed out by Roboramma, god omnipotently and omnisciently created Satan who in turn is credited with the creation of evil, the concepts "good" and "evil" have no meaning in isolation of one another. "Dark" is equally meaningless without "light." As with all such complementary properties, the very act of defining so-and-so as "good" perforce creates a concept of its opposite, namely "evil," ill-defined though it may be. It would be impossible to judge something as "good" (or "evil") in the absence of any idea regarding a contrary assessment. Therefore, god created "evil" as an unavoidable consequence of creating "good." Also, the notion of a moral code of conduct makes no sense without an a priori assumption that "good" and "evil," however they are defined, do in fact exist.

The subjectivity of these assessments, as mentioned by Piscivore, are much more probably human constructs, coloured by their current cultural practices and beliefs: these days we would, at worst, consign a "witch" to a mental asylum, rather than burn her at the stake after extracting her confession by torture.

By creating things omnipotently and being omniscient, god can only create the illusion of free will. Since he already knows exactly what you're going to do every second of your life, how can you possibly make any choices? If somebody turns from god, they do so for one reason only: because god made them that way. Do you see the absurdity of what you're attempting to prove here?

'Luthon64

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Ok I thought about it and I decided not to compromise my beliefs just because I know people on here will disagree with them. I actually don't believe God created evil, Satan did. How can God not have created evil and still be all-powerful? Simple- evil has no power, but is only weakness. God only created the option of evil- that exists as a result of turning from Him.

Hm, so getting aids is an option?

If Gunderscored exists, then i think he is evil for giving my little sister
1) Cerebral palsy
2) Atypical autism
3) Hip displacement
4) Twisted feet.

My sister can't walk without shins.
My sister can't walk far, so she has to have a wheel chair with her.
My sister can't tell if her actions are good or bad.

This is through no fault of her own, she didn't make a choice, she didn't choose an option. This was forced upon her.

Now, if Gunderscored exists it is HIS FAULT because either
1) He did it intentionally to make her suffer
2) He made the foundation for this, and it is thus his fault by proxy, because he should know that this would happen.

Sorry, if the problem of evil was only caused by humans, then i might agree with you. But evil isn't only caused by humans. A lot of evil in this world is caused by natural phenomena.

So, for me Gunderscored is either
1) Evil
2) Stupid
3) Not omnipotent (then why call him Gunderscored?)


If Gunderscored exists then any, and all, suffering in the world is evil. If he doesn't exist all suffering in the world isn't evil. Thus, either Gunderscored exists and AIDS/HIV is evil (because it is either caused by him directly, or by him by proxy). Or Gunderscored doesn't exist, and AIDS/HIV is simply a virus that does harm, but it doesn't have any ethics of its own, and thus isn't evil.

Sincerely
Tobias

 

[Piggy]

Just to let you know, everything in this post presupposes that God exists.

There's your problem right there. You've just guaranteed an irreconcilable dilemma.

It's like saying, "I believe in a circle with corners", then carrying on about how we might resolve the quandry of angles existing within arcs.

 

[athon]

So, ultimately evil is the failure to acknowledge the existance of God? Yes? And we are talking about the God of the Bible? Yes? If this is the case, what is considered evil varies with time, (ancient evil being different to the acts we consider socially evil today such as rape, murder, genocide etc.). There is only one true evil and that is failure to acknowledge a personal God.

With evil defined and God being the personal (if somewhat ill-defined) Judeo-Christian deity, we are forced to reflect on the following; God creates man with curiosity and intellect. Via those gifts it is possible to choose not to believe in God, therefore possible to choose evil. This is called free will.

We are given no cause or reason to become aware of God, indeed we are encouraged to believe in his absence as a result of our God-given faculties. The moment we are given that irrefutable evidence that he exists, we are punished for eternity for not believing when we had the choice. Infinite punishment for finite sins (something unique to Christian doctrine, btw).

Therefore, where faith is a choice whether to believe or not, I choose not to. To me, eternity in the presence of a deity who would create such a dichotomy would be punishment. A case of damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

In other words, it gives me a lifetime where I am happy in the face of the remaining eternity where I will be miserable anyway. Ce la vie.

Athon

 

[chriswl]

It's always "Yes, I know a perfect world would be boring, but if God could just do the world a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better..."

Why bother?

Because God is supposed to be omnipotent and omnibenevolent. If our world was created by such a being then it would be impossible for us to imagine it being even a tiny bit better. The fact that there are clearly at least incremental improvements that could be made to the world, without infringing anyone's free will (anyone want to argue that the Asian Tsunami was really necessary?) proves that the world was not created by an omniscient, omnibenevolent God.

I'm an agnostic, but the problem of evil isn't my problem.

Perhaps if you took the problem more seriously you'd become an atheist (that's what did it for me).

 

[Ladewig]

I found the opening post tepid and of little use, but I found your subsequent post somewhat offensive and insulting.

Ok I thought about it and I decided not to compromise my beliefs just because I know people on here will disagree with them. I actually don't believe God created evil, Satan did. How can God not have created evil and still be all-powerful? Simple- evil has no power, but is only weakness. God only created the option of evil- that exists as a result of turning from Him.

"Evil has no power"?? Darat has already posted examples, so I won't repeat them.

 

[veggie doll]

Therefore, where faith is a choice whether to believe or not, I choose not to. To me, eternity in the presence of a deity who would create such a dichotomy would be punishment. A case of damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

In other words, it gives me a lifetime where I am happy in the face of the remaining eternity where I will be miserable anyway. Ce la vie.

Athon

This sums up how I feel fairly well.

To the OP: I don't understand your statement about God creating Satan. If God only created 'good', then where did Satan get his evil from? If 'evil' was started by Satan turning from God, and God hates evil, why didn't he just make Satan have faith in him when he first created him? Why would God create an opponent?

 

[Jonas]

Hi. Just wanted to relate something I saw on TV here over the weekend (I'm in the UK). It's relevant in that it regards the question of evil.
There was a documentary about David Attenborough and the "Life On Earth" nature programmes that he has been making for however long now. I just happened to switch on to catch a part where he was talking about the darker side of nature. The first example was of a Killer Whale catching seals near the shore - the whale took the seal out to sea tossing it around (still alive), clearly playing with its kill. The second example was of a troop (not sure if that's the correct collective noun) of chimps hunting a monkey. The chimps were exulting in the kill, more or less torturing their victim.
Mr. Attenborough made a couple of comments - please forgive the paraphrasing - "you should see what we left on the cutting room floor".
He also made another comment, and I just found it on wikipedia:

"I often get letters, quite frequently, from people who say how they like the programs a lot, but I never give credit to the almighty power that created nature, to which I reply and say, "Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the almighty, always quote beautiful things, they always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old, and I reply and say, "Well presumably the god you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful god with that action, and therefore it seems to me safer to show things that I know to be truth, truthful and factual, and allow people to make up their own minds about the moralities of this thing, or indeed the theology of this thing." From the BBC documentary "Life on Air"

I think the example he gives illustrates the problem of evil quite well.