Prayer = blasphemy?

[Mosquito]

Started thinking about this about yesterday...

Now, I'm not a christian, jew, muslim or even rastafarian, so I'm not too well informed in these things, I guess.

I do, however live in a part of the world where there is the occational religious person, so I've had *some* contact with them.

From what I understand, in christianity (or at least some denominations) God has a plan for the world, and everything within it. This plan, being God's, is perfect.

God is also omni-*, so there should really not be any surprises for it (and I know this completely rules out free will, but the alternative seems to be the possibility to surprise God, which seems to be impossible).

So, as far as I understand, there are two main reasons for prayer, to get God to do something for you, and to get closer to God. In turn:

To get God to do something for you, would indicate either the power to control God, or at least the possibility to manipulate it, which is basically the same thing. And having the power to control God makes you "bigger and stronger", which seems ridiculous.

To get closer to God, would mean trying to persuade God to "move" you closer to it, which again indicates the possibility to control it. So this is then just a special case of making God do something for you.

It would then seem that prayer is based on the belief that you can (at least to some extent) control God. This idea, presented as this would be considered blasphemous, no?

There is also the implications if you actually CAN control God, making it do anything other than its original and perfect plan, would be like the devil's wet dream. Think about it, 'cause I need to go, and I don't have a better explanation right now


This would not fit in a world view markedly different from what I've seen from christians. As I know even less about other religions, it may or may not fit for them. YMWV.


So, is my line of thinking good, or have I messed it up?


Mosquito - still learning to think

 

[Brainache]

Trying to apply logic to religion is like trying to apply plaster to a fish. It won't set and the slippery little beggar keeps wriggling away.

 

[Loss Leader]

So, as far as I understand, there are two main reasons for prayer, to get God to do something for you, and to get closer to God.

I am uncertain why you think that religion can or should be dissected logically. Religion does not rest in logic but in psychology. God is a paternalistic father who, while stern, can sometimes be influenced. He can also be made to feel pleased, respected and proud. And, like all our fathers, when he is in a good mood everything is a little easier for us. When he is angry, things become very difficult.

Why we, as adults, feel the need to recreate our fathers as omni* beings is a question you should address to a qualified psychologist.

Logic has nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Cosmo]

I am uncertain why you think that religion can or should be dissected logically. Religion does not rest in logic but in psychology. God is a paternalistic father who, while stern, can sometimes be influenced. He can also be made to feel pleased, respected and proud. And, like all our fathers, when he is in a good mood everything is a little easier for us. When he is angry, things become very difficult.

Some people are inherently (over)rational, or (over)analytical. If logic, rationality, and analysis work well for these people in their everyday lives - work, family, computers, etc - then it follows that these people would also seek to apply logic and rationality to religion. Some of us simply don't have any other paradigm, or "way", to approach that which we come across.

The usual conclusion from such analysis (and we've already seen this in this thread) is that religion is not logical, or at the very least not able to have logic applied to it. That is precisely why religion seems so alien to so many of us - our worldview is completely incompatible with its very nature.

 

[Mosquito]

Some people are inherently (over)rational, or (over)analytical. If logic, rationality, and analysis work well for these people in their everyday lives - work, family, computers, etc - then it follows that these people would also seek to apply logic and rationality to religion. Some of us simply don't have any other paradigm, or "way", to approach that which we come across.

The usual conclusion from such analysis (and we've already seen this in this thread) is that religion is not logical, or at the very least not able to have logic applied to it. That is precisely why religion seems so alien to so many of us - our worldview is completely incompatible with its very nature.

Well, I suppose this would apply in some way to me. I like to think about if things make sense (logically), though I have no formal training in this, and I therefore assume that I make mistakes sometimes.

Thus me posting here, where there are a lot of people who are *very* good at logical thinking and also plenty of people with massive knowledge about, well, lots of stuff. It's a way of getting corrective feedback.

So from the replies so far, I gather that my logic (or at least the conclusion) is correct, though that religion is not the place to use logic (I rather knew that, but religious people often think that their religion is logical and correct, so it is only when shown that logically it is wrong the whole "religion does not belong in the realm of logic"-response comes up).

Mosquito - time to think about something else?

 

[HeyLeroy]

What they all said.

There are a lot of instances in the Old Testament where God was talked out of destroying this or that by someone.

He seems quite bi-polar, if you ask me.

 

[Loss Leader]

He seems quite bi-polar, if you ask me.

I remember reading parts of the book God: A Biography wherein they seemed to think God wandered through the old testament like a man suffering a head injury. He'd make promises, then disappear, then return and be shocked that things hadn't worked out, then only talk to prophets and then just go silent altogether. It made for an interesting read.

 

[HeyLeroy]

That does sound interesting. I'll see if I can find it, thanks!

 

[Smart_Cookie]

Hey Mosquito.

Just to add another point to your post -

It's my understanding that prior to contact with Europeans, North American aboriginals didn't use prayer as a method of asking God (the Creator) for something, like a favor.

Their prayers were strictly of the "Giving Thanks" variety.


p.s. They also had no concept of land ownership. The idea that one individual could lay claim to a tract of land was completely foreign to them. But that's another kettle of fish.

Cheers.

 

[blutoski]

Started thinking about this about yesterday...

Now, I'm not a christian, jew, muslim or even rastafarian, so I'm not too well informed in these things, I guess.

I do, however live in a part of the world where there is the occational religious person, so I've had *some* contact with them.

From what I understand, in christianity (or at least some denominations) God has a plan for the world, and everything within it. This plan, being God's, is perfect.

God is also omni-*, so there should really not be any surprises for it (and I know this completely rules out free will, but the alternative seems to be the possibility to surprise God, which seems to be impossible).

So, as far as I understand, there are two main reasons for prayer, to get God to do something for you, and to get closer to God. In turn:

To get God to do something for you, would indicate either the power to control God, or at least the possibility to manipulate it, which is basically the same thing. And having the power to control God makes you "bigger and stronger", which seems ridiculous.

To get closer to God, would mean trying to persuade God to "move" you closer to it, which again indicates the possibility to control it. So this is then just a special case of making God do something for you.

It would then seem that prayer is based on the belief that you can (at least to some extent) control God. This idea, presented as this would be considered blasphemous, no?

There is also the implications if you actually CAN control God, making it do anything other than its original and perfect plan, would be like the devil's wet dream. Think about it, 'cause I need to go, and I don't have a better explanation right now


This would not fit in a world view markedly different from what I've seen from christians. As I know even less about other religions, it may or may not fit for them. YMWV.


So, is my line of thinking good, or have I messed it up?


Mosquito - still learning to think

The big three religions don't consider prayer to be blasphemous, although some types of prayer may be.

They don't interpret prayer to be an attempt to control God so much as a way to demonstrate their faith. Not all prayers are requests. Some are just repetition of fidelity, or thanks.

In the case of prayer for benefit (personal or others), it is interpreted that God has created a world with multiple outcomes possible, and can direct events according to whether He feels the prayer was done by a deserving person, and with appropriate sincerity, &c.

Having said that, there is a key distinction between the Protestant and Catholic approaches to blessings and salvation in that Catholics are more inclined to believe that prayer and penitence earn results, whereas Protestants have a tradition of believing that you can't work your way into God's good book: that you are only saved by His grace, and that there is no control over it.

It's hard to generalize, because I have met many "Christians" who are clearly ancestor-worshippers in the sense that they have a Family Circus view of Grandma monitoring the family from heaven, and requests often go to the deceased relative. For example, I have a friend who prayed to her mother for a sunny day for her wedding. This type of prayer would be considered blasphemous - downright pagan, actually - by most Christian authorities.

 

[elliotfc]

Hey Mosquito.

Just to add another point to your post -

It's my understanding that prior to contact with Europeans, North American aboriginals didn't use prayer as a method of asking God (the Creator) for something, like a favor.

Their prayers were strictly of the "Giving Thanks" variety.


p.s. They also had no concept of land ownership. The idea that one individual could lay claim to a tract of land was completely foreign to them. But that's another kettle of fish.

Cheers.

One account tells of a contract...the white man gives supplies to the Indian tribe in return for "land"...when the white man left, the chief laughed and said "do they think they can also possess the air". When they were killed for trespassing there was no more laughing. -Elliot

 

[Ginarley]

snip...

So from the replies so far, I gather that my logic (or at least the conclusion) is correct, though that religion is not the place to use logic (I rather knew that, but religious people often think that their religion is logical and correct, so it is only when shown that logically it is wrong the whole "religion does not belong in the realm of logic"-response comes up).

Although that doesn't stop preachers relentlessly using "logical arguments" to link and associate passages of the bible to the points they want to make.

 

[blutoski]

One account tells of a contract...the white man gives supplies to the Indian tribe in return for "land"...when the white man left, the chief laughed and said "do they think they can also possess the air". When they were killed for trespassing there was no more laughing. -Elliot

Meh. I've never really bought into this. My knowledge is probably strongest in regard to the local bands, so I'll limit the example to Burrard and Squamish territorial skirmishes. They knew exactly where the borders were, and trespassing was a very well understood act, punishable by enslavement or death. The local tribes were functioning slave economies by the time Europeans arrived, and most had been captured in raids across band/tribe borders.

Vancouverites on this list may know about an island in Coal Harbour called Deadman's Island. The history of this place is ghastly, and its origin is a territorial dispute between these two local bands.

 

[Ladewig]

It would then seem that prayer is based on the belief that you can (at least to some extent) control God. This idea, presented as this would be considered blasphemous, no?

There is also the implications if you actually CAN control God, making it do anything other than its original and perfect plan, would be like the devil's wet dream. Think about it, 'cause I need to go, and I don't have a better explanation right now


This would not fit in a world view markedly different from what I've seen from christians. As I know even less about other religions, it may or may not fit for them. YMWV.


So, is my line of thinking good, or have I messed it up?

Yes and no. There are many popular and influential Christians who advise people to pray in the exact manner that you criticize, but if one goes back to the source document, one sees very different instructions for praying.

From the Gospel of Matthew:

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

If one is to believe in the Bible as an accurate account of God's word, then one has a very specific prayer to use in private. Yes, later on the the New Testament, Paul gives some instructions for praying that contradict these instructions, but I've always considered Paul sort of a jackass.

 

[elliotfc]

Although that doesn't stop preachers relentlessly using "logical arguments" to link and associate passages of the bible to the points they want to make.

The internal logic is doing just fine, but I can see how someone from the outside may disagree. -Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Meh. I've never really bought into this. My knowledge is probably strongest in regard to the local bands, so I'll limit the example to Burrard and Squamish territorial skirmishes. They knew exactly where the borders were, and trespassing was a very well understood act, punishable by enslavement or death. The local tribes were functioning slave economies by the time Europeans arrived, and most had been captured in raids across band/tribe borders.

Vancouverites on this list may know about an island in Coal Harbour called Deadman's Island. The history of this place is ghastly, and its origin is a territorial dispute between these two local bands.

I think we're talking about different tribes, my template is the eastern United States. -Elliot