Prayer and power

[elliotfc]

I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees.

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what?

2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to *detach* himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think?

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, *IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY*.

4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why *OUR WILL* is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that *God's will* be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. *That's prayer*.

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

 

[Darat]

I'm surprised when people study the power of prayer, or make websites like why God won't heal amputees.

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what? If I prayed that I had all the money in the world, and another person prayed that they had enough money to survive, then what? If I prayed that I would never experience physical death, but my neighbor prays for me to die a painful death, then what?

Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers.

2. Given the above, it seems reasonable for God to *detach* himself from the whole prayer situation, dontcha think?

Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers.

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated! If it was, *IT WOULD HAVE DISAPPEARED COMPELTELY, JUST AS THE GHOST DANCE DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY*.

A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine.

4. The Lord's Prayer, given to us by Jesus, contains all that anyone ought to need to know about the reality of prayer, for the Christian. It is directed to the Father. It is about the Father. It is not about us. It recognizes the relationship, and keeps our reality in perspective. His will be done, not ours. In the kind of prayer I often see ruminated about on this forum, we wonder why *OUR WILL* is not done when we pray. That is out of order. When we pray, we ask that *God's will* be done. Do we ask for things? Of course. Food, forgiveness, strength, all that stuff, culminating in deliverance from evil. Yet those requests are within the framework of God's will. Jesus prayed before the crucifixion, and God's will was done. *That's prayer*.

The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it.

An interesting site that may provide you with a good starting point to explore the fascinating history of the Lord's prayer and some of the debates about what it actually means can be found at this site: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate.

 

[Genesius]

Pardon me for saying so...but I think this is all basic Christianity and I'm surprised that individuals think they've had some major epiphany by realizing that God doesn't heal amputees or that people would waste time conducting scientific studies on prayer efficacy. When we pray, we are embracing our weakness, and we are not exerting any power over God at all. Christ told us not to put him to the test, and expecting prayer to "work" is doing just that.

-Elliot

Jesus also said:

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:13-14

Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

1. If God did answer prayer, the mind absolutely boggles. If I prayed that the most beautiful woman in the world would fall in love with me, and 180982 other guys prayed the same thing, then what?

Try not to be the guy who winds up with sloppy one hundred eighty thousand nine hundred eighty thirds.

 

[elliotfc]

Yet the Bible tells us that God will answer prayers.

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways. I often give vauge answers to my students...for a very particular reason.

What I'm saying is that God doesn't answer prayers in the same way that someone would answer 8 if you ask what's 2 times 4.

Not really - he's all knowing and all powerful, must Christians would not accept the limits you are putting on God's powers.

I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that.

A lot of theological study has been devoted to prayer and what it means, your summation does not do justice to how Christians view this very complex and difficult point of their doctrine.

I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?"

During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are *always* offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses.

The Lord's Prayer has also been a matter of great debate and again your summary does not do it justice, indeed we need to always start with which version and even which translation before we start to discuss it.

Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say.

Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

With all due respect it would appear from this post that you have a superficial understanding of Christian doctrine and the history of Christian theological debate.

Thanks Darat! Have a nice one!

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Jesus also said:
John 14:13-14

Pretty straightforward - you ask for it in Jesus' name, and you got it. A promise Jesus has broken every single day for over 2000 years.

When you pray in *his name*. When you pray, with expectations that anything you want be done, you are praying in *your name*, that your will be done.

When you pray in the name of Jesus, you pray that his will be done, and not yours.

When we pray that a loved one be healed of cancer, do we pray that so that the Father may be glorified in the Son, or, do we pray that so we could have a loved one healed so we can continue to live with that person, or, so that person could continue to live?

If Jesus said, ask me anything, and I'll do it!, not only would I completely succumb to your point, I also reckon that Christians wouldn't pray nearly as much as they do. But there are additions like "in my name", and "that the Father be glorified in the Son" that, again, pllace the focus on God and not on ourselves.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists.

-Elliot

 

[Darat]

​

...snip..

I disagree with you on this point, and short of polling data that's that.

...snip...

It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians.

I think that many theologians probably go through contortions that lay Christians don't...but that's of course speculation on my part. I talk to ordinary Catholics about these things often, people who'll never visit forums or write theolgoical treatises. I pray with people often too. We understand the deal. No one is ever going to stand up one day and say "wait a second...what if God doesn't heal this person's cancer...then what!?!?!?"

Therefore as I said your understanding is superficial I would suggest you visit the Vatican's website and start to read what the Pope and others have to say about prayer. I would hope you would find it enlightening. (I also include another site of links below.)

During the Catholic Mass petitions, specific ones, are *always* offered, and we perfectly understand that it is God's will, and not our will, that will govern the "results" of our prayer. The exercise of prayer in and of itself, however, is the focus of the Prayers of the Faithful, and not the result. I hate to call this elementary, but this is century upon century, probably literally billions of Catholic masses.

I presume you mean Roman Catholic? A good starting point that has links to many of the "classical" Roman Catholic treaties etc. on prayer is here: http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/prayer.html#Texts

Thanks for the weblink, forgive me for saying this...but those translations are themselves loaded, don't you think? Without question the website is anti-Church. Of course though...the gospels were written in Greek. At the moment I don't know where the Aramaic came from...was the Aramaic deduced from the Greek? The site doesn't say.

Which translations? The different ones in the KJ Bible, the different ones used by the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches?

Here is something more direct. Which is better? I dunno.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/lordpray.html

...snip...

I don't know either - which was rather the point of my first reply.

 

[Darat]

One more thing Darat if you'd care to address...how would God handle situation 1 that I offered, in your opinion? Of course this assumes that God exists.

-Elliot

I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God?

 

[Meffy]

Yes, but you can answer a question in many, many, many ways.

Indeed.

 

[elliotfc]

It is part of the Roman Catholic faith and is therefore the belief of the vast majority of Christians.

Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you *have* to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

I have no idea, and doesn't the Bible makes it very clear that God is not subject to human limitations, and that humans can never understand God?

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

*God* may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now?

I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think?

-Elliot

 

[Meffy]

"New, improved, omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent GOD answers prayers!!! Not even the fall of the sparrow escapes his notice, so you can be sure he'll listen to you!"
(some restrictions may apply)

Grand absolutes lose their strength when hedged about with all these disclaimers and exceptions and -- let's be honest here -- excuses. If God is such a grand absolute why does he depend on escape clauses and weasel words to get him out of all those tight spots?

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

*BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*

How do you explain the lines outside Benny Hinns crusades? Why do the two christian channels I get concentrate on promising healings 24/7? Why does Pat Robertson constantly jawbone about the "law of reciprocity", if you give to Jesus he WILL give it back with interest. Why do they constantly run sotries about people who gave to the 700 club and mysteriously got healed or found a large check in the mail? Why dont mainstream chrisitans condem him if its not true?

My city is full of small time faith healers and "healing rooms". Are the people who run these events or participate in them christian? I suppose the mega rich christian groups are supported by just a tiny minority? Or are they all fake christians doomed to hell?

 

[Lothian]

Darat, being all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't mean that you *have* to do anything and everything that anybody asks you to do.

-Elliot

Being all-knowing and all-powerful, Darat knows that. Oh......

 

[Darat]

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

*God* may have no limitations. What about us? Do any limitations restrict me from living forever and dying right now?

The answer is the same if you believe in an omnipotent God then he is not limited in any way (else he would not be omnipotent).

I am of course arguing this in a very superficial manner since the limitations or not of God's power is another subject that many Chrsitians have argued over for many centuries. Some do conclude as you seem to do that there are some things God cannot do, whilst others conclude that God can do anything.

I think you're suggesting that a Christian ought never to use reason, logic, or good sense because God is not subject to human limitations. If so, it's pointless for me to continue to discuss anything in this forum, don't you think?

-Elliot

That is up to you and what you believe. However your OP seemed to be criticising Members for not understanding Christianity yet in doing so seemed to demonstrate that you were quite unaware of the depth of Christian theology and the extent of the on going debate about aspects of Christian faith such as prayer.

 

[Bri]

OK, so then it is possible for God to allow me to live forever and die right now?

If you believe in the Roman Catholic version of Christianity then God is capable of everything.

Everything that is logically possible, but not the logically impossible as would be the case of allowing someone to live forever yet die at the same time.

According to Wikipedia:

Mainstream Catholic theology eventually reconciled itself to the Greek and Arabic material the Reconquista made available, thanks in large part to Thomas Aquinas, whose Summa Theologica affirmed the notion that God could not defy logic.

-Bri

 

[Anacoluthon64]

Indeed.

Though garbed in the enlivening raiments of satire, that story, if its background be even vaguely factual, remains a tearing heartbreaker.

Believer or no.

Dewy-eyed 'Luthon64

 

[Tricky]

3. When we pray, *we are rejecting power, not embracing it*. Prayer is different from, say, a superstition like the Ghost Dance. Various Indian groups performed the Ghost Dance because they believed in would exert power and control over God, who would then give benefits to them and resurrect their dead warriors and all that. Press the button, and X happens. *BUT CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE THIS EXPECTATION IN PRAYER*. Or, rather, they ought not to have that expectation. Christians reject superstition, the belief that God can be controlled if I just do A, B, and C. When we pray, we ask, we question, we praise, we think, we talk, all that. But it is not result orientated!

I do not believe that most Christians feel this way about prayer. Listen to a survivor of a scary situation and if he is a Christian, it is likely he will say that he was saved because he prayed. The clear statement is that if he had not prayed, he would not have been saved.

And indeed, what is the point of prayer if it is nothing more than to give God credit? If it's all God's doing, then He knows it. Do you really think God requires praise in order to do what he does?

No, I believe that people pray to God with at least some expectations, even if that expectation is only that He will guide them. And a lot of times, they have much greater expectations. My father-in-law who is receiving hospice care in our home, recieves two or three cards a day called "Prayergrams" from a Baptist church where his niece worships. These cards are specifically labeled "Intercessory Prayer". Now I ask you, what could an intercessory prayer be other than a request/hope/wish for God to intercede? Sure, they will take "no" as an answer, as the saying goes, but it is quite clear that they are asking.

I think, Elliot, that you are probably one of the only people who prays to God with absolutely no expectations of evidence that your prayer was heard.

 

[grayman]

Why you'll never be able to logically debate this issue with a devout believer...

If God answers my prayers: It's a miracle.

If God doesn't answer my prayers: It's God's will.