Police killing.

[RolandRat]

"A black man has been shot dead by homeless outreach police in San Clemente, California, after reportedly being stopped for jaywalking.

On Wednesday two Orange County Sheriff’s Department (OCSD) deputies, who were part of the city’s homeless outreach team, approached a man who is thought to have been homeless, according to The Orange County Register.

“Shortly after they contacted him, a physical altercation broke out,” said OCSD Seargent Dennis Breckner. “Shortly after that two gunshots were fired.”

Sgt Breckner said that CCTV footage from a nearby business at the time of the incident showed the man reaching for a deputy’s weapon during the altercation.

Chloe Miller, 23, told The County Register that she witnessed the two officers and the man in the middle of the road before moving back to the pavement where they then tackled him to the floor.

“I heard two shots, and it was after he was on the ground,” Ms Miller said.

Mobile footage taken of the incident reported by KNBC showed the man shouting “stop touching me,” as he attempts to walk past two deputies and the officer's gesturing for the man to sit down.

The man refuses to sit down and deputies are later seen knocking the man to the ground and scream before two shots are fired in succession.


According to CBSLA witnesses said that a deputy screamed that the man had hold of the weapon just before shots were fired. Authorities did not immediately specify if the man was armed."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...pped-for-jaywalking/ar-BB19ot4Y?ocid=msedgdhp

Another senseless killing or justified?

 

[angrysoba]

"A black man has been shot dead by homeless outreach police in San Clemente, California, after reportedly being stopped for jaywalking."

Insane. I am sure the excuses will be good, though.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

"A black man has been shot dead by homeless outreach police in San Clemente, California, after reportedly being stopped for jaywalking.

On Wednesday two Orange County Sheriff’s Department (OCSD) deputies, who were part of the city’s homeless outreach team, approached a man who is thought to have been homeless, according to The Orange County Register.

“Shortly after they contacted him, a physical altercation broke out,” said OCSD Seargent Dennis Breckner. “Shortly after that two gunshots were fired.”

Sgt Breckner said that CCTV footage from a nearby business at the time of the incident showed the man reaching for a deputy’s weapon during the altercation.

Chloe Miller, 23, told The County Register that she witnessed the two officers and the man in the middle of the road before moving back to the pavement where they then tackled him to the floor.

“I heard two shots, and it was after he was on the ground,” Ms Miller said.

Mobile footage taken of the incident reported by KNBC showed the man shouting “stop touching me,” as he attempts to walk past two deputies and the officer's gesturing for the man to sit down.

The man refuses to sit down and deputies are later seen knocking the man to the ground and scream before two shots are fired in succession.


According to CBSLA witnesses said that a deputy screamed that the man had hold of the weapon just before shots were fired. Authorities did not immediately specify if the man was armed."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...pped-for-jaywalking/ar-BB19ot4Y?ocid=msedgdhp

Another senseless killing or justified?

It will be interesting to see if this one gets traction or not. The deceased life was one that mattered and being homeless makes him even more sympathetic. If the racial profile of everybody involved fits the narrative, we might get some mostly peaceful riots out of it. It could just easily get swept down the memory hole like the 250 or so innocent White people who have been shot and killed for no reason by police officers in the United States since the George Floyd incident. It's very hard to predict where these things will go these days.

 

[angrysoba]

It will be interesting to see if this one gets traction or not. The deceased life was one that mattered and being homeless makes him even more sympathetic. If the racial profile of everybody involved fits the narrative, we might get some mostly peaceful riots out of it. It could just easily get swept down the memory hole like the 250 or so innocent White people who have been shot and killed for no reason by police officers in the United States since the George Floyd incident. It's very hard to predict where these things will go these days.

At this point, any acknowledgment that there is a very serious problem with the US police shooting people dead is progress of a kind.

I've been of the opinion for a while now that while race is likely a contributing factor to these types of killings that the over-riding problem is with the police killing people generally.

 

[Tolls]

I've been of the opinion for a while now that while race is likely a contributing factor to these types of killings that the over-riding problem is with the police killing people generally.

^This.

If the outcome of this year's protests (and I have no high hopes on this at all, no matter who wins the election) results in improved police training in dealing with people with issues (mostly mental) then that will help everyone, not just the ones who are currently the most aggrieved.

You'd think people would be pissed off that anyone was being gunned down in situations like this as that implies that, well, anyone could be gunned down in situations like this.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

IMO, the overriding factor that keeps cops from escalating to the point of physical violence is whether the person in question is likely to sue their pants off or not.

The amount of violence police is willing to apply without checking themselves is inversely proportional to the legal and publicity battle they expect to face.

And because of underlying racism, Blacks and poor are not expected to be able to afford a drawn-out legal battle using an expensive law firm.

 

[bluesjnr]

^This.

If the outcome of this year's protests (and I have no high hopes on this at all, no matter who wins the election) results in improved police training in dealing with people with issues (mostly mental) then that will help everyone, not just the ones who are currently the most aggrieved.

You'd think people would be pissed off that anyone was being gunned down in situations like this as that implies that, well, anyone could be gunned down in situations like this.

It's safe to say, looking at how the police, needlessly, escalated this encounter in to a deadly one that no lessons have been or will be learned by the "homeless outreach police" [WTF?] in San Clemente. Or perhaps we are witnessing policy?

One would think that given that lofty prefix they'd be well versed in dealing with mental health issues.

I'd suggest a better method of getting your feelings over would be to phone the station in particular and complain, then encourage as many others to do the same. Organise peaceful visits to the station to discuss and follow the complaints procedure. Swamp them using their own bureaucracy, legally.

Film every encounter.

The downside for many, with my approach, is that it won't get them a new telly or hit them with an adrenaline rush by panning in windows and general fire raising.

 

[uke2se]

IMO, the overriding factor that keeps cops from escalating to the point of physical violence is whether the person in question is likely to sue their pants off or not.

The amount of violence police is willing to apply without checking themselves is inversely proportional to the legal and publicity battle they expect to face.

And because of underlying racism, Blacks and poor are not expected to be able to afford a drawn-out legal battle using an expensive law firm.

Armed people - at least in a group - apparently are also exempt from police brutality. So, be rich or be armed in a group when dealing with police.

 

[RolandRat]

One would think that given that lofty prefix they'd be well versed in dealing with mental health issues.

That was my first thought too. They seem to be a dedicated "department" to deal with this type of issue. I'd have thought de-escalation would be something they should be versed in.

 

[The Don]

Armed people - at least in a group - apparently are also exempt from police brutality. So, be rich or be armed in a group when dealing with police.

Ideally if you can also try and ensure that you're white - that can also significantly affect police officers' first reactions.

It won't prevent you being shot, but at least it's less likely that it'll be the officers' opening gambit.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Having a camera running used to be a good defense against police brutality - not anymore.

 

[Sherkeu]

That was my first thought too. They seem to be a dedicated "department" to deal with this type of issue. I'd have thought de-escalation would be something they should be versed in.

San Clemente is THE beach drug city of Orange County.
Overwhelmingly white or hispanic and usually dealing in meth and heroin.
If they are doing outreach, perhaps they should conceal their deadly weapons or leave them back at the station. Having them visible can be a trigger.

This guy was wandering the middle of the road and combative, but it is only because he reached for the weapon that he was shot. This could be avoided. A lot of these people believe there are 'people out to get them(often gov't or secret mafia), total paranoia, and will do anything to get away. They genuinely fear for their lives.

One issue I see is that when training gives a legitimate 'out' for medical or mental issues, then 'fakers' quickly learn of it and try that to get out of being arrested even when they are perfectly sane. I have seen people who start complaining they cannot breathe, or that they are being hurt before an officer even touches them!
They need a lot more training to discern a situation properly.

 

[BStrong]

IMO, the overriding factor that keeps cops from escalating to the point of physical violence is whether the person in question is likely to sue their pants off or not.

The amount of violence police is willing to apply without checking themselves is inversely proportional to the legal and publicity battle they expect to face.

And because of underlying racism, Blacks and poor are not expected to be able to afford a drawn-out legal battle using an expensive law firm.

The overwhelming majority of legal actions against LEA's regarding civil rights violations - including excessive force and unlawful use of lethal force - are done on a contingency fee basis.

I don't know of one that was done on the plaintiffs' dime up front.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

escalating to the point of physical violence

And this here is the key problem. Lets assume that at the moment of the shooting, it was 100% justified. The questions are, should have things even have gotten to that point to begin with? Was this something worth escalating the situation over? Could the whole thing have been approached differently? To me it seems like very often the answers are "no", "no", and "absolutely".

 

[eeyore1954]

IMO, the overriding factor that keeps cops from escalating to the point of physical violence is whether the person in question is likely to sue their pants off or not.

The amount of violence police is willing to apply without checking themselves is inversely proportional to the legal and publicity battle they expect to face.

And because of underlying racism, Blacks and poor are not expected to be able to afford a drawn-out legal battle using an expensive law firm.

In a civil case that is not true. If a lawyer thinks there is a case there will be no fee until the settlement.
Personally I doubt if lawsuits are a consideration to most police.

 

[Dr. Keith]

In a civil case that is not true. If a lawyer thinks there is a case there will be no fee until the settlement.
Personally I doubt if lawsuits are a consideration to most police.

They should be, but they are not. It would be interesting to see settlement money coming out of the overtime or capital improvement budgets for police, but they do not. It all comes from general funds in most jurisdictions.

We were going to get new cruisers on a 36 month basis, but Jones had to hit that guy three extra times last year, so we are pushing it back to 42 months. Be sure to thank Jones if your seat is completely broken down and your back is killing you at the end of the day!​

What a silly thought.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

San Clemente is THE beach drug city of Orange County.
Overwhelmingly white or hispanic and usually dealing in meth and heroin.
If they are doing outreach, perhaps they should conceal their deadly weapons or leave them back at the station. Having them visible can be a trigger.

This guy was wandering the middle of the road and combative, but it is only because he reached for the weapon that he was shot. This could be avoided. A lot of these people believe there are 'people out to get them(often gov't or secret mafia), total paranoia, and will do anything to get away. They genuinely fear for their lives.

One issue I see is that when training gives a legitimate 'out' for medical or mental issues, then 'fakers' quickly learn of it and try that to get out of being arrested even when they are perfectly sane. I have seen people who start complaining they cannot breathe, or that they are being hurt before an officer even touches them!
They need a lot more training to discern a situation properly.

If you combine mental illness with the ongoing media campaign that tries to convince black people that law enforcement is engaged in some ridiculous black genocide, you're going to have problems. Even without mental illness, if a black person is convinced that any police interaction is likely to result in his death, the rational response to seeing flashing lights in your rear view mirror is do whatever you can to escape and if you can't escape, fight back.

This is the kind of response that rarely ends well no matter the color of your skin.

 

[Mumbles]

They should be, but they are not. It would be interesting to see settlement money coming out of the overtime or capital improvement budgets for police, but they do not. It all comes from general funds in most jurisdictions.

We were going to get new cruisers on a 36 month basis, but Jones had to hit that guy three extra times last year, so we are pushing it back to 42 months. Be sure to thank Jones if your seat is completely broken down and your back is killing you at the end of the day!​

What a silly thought.

THis would be one reform that could come from dumping negotiations with police unions. And yes, if it could lose them their personal retirement, that would also cause them to be more cautious.

It would also cause people to be more cautious about becoming a cop in the first place, which could backfire massively, though.

A large part of why entire departments should be dissolved and replaced is because of the toxic culture that many PDs cultivate (I note that white supremacists, who eagerly discuss "thug" or "rap" culture as the reason why police need to be insanely violent rarely discuss this matter.) Specifically, as we've discussed many times before, there's the idea beaten into their heads at every turn that they absolutely must rely on one another, that the public hates them, that the criminals will all kill them at the drop of a hat, and they must control every situation by being or threatening violence.

I've said before that this is self-defeating - that responding to everything with violence, threatened or realized, leads to everyone hating them, a few people who specifically try to kill as many of them as they can, and so forth. THis is not to say that going out to specifically ambush and kill police is good - it's terrible, clearly - but the complaint that leads to some of this is perfectly legitimate (this is as opposed to most right wing militias, who are mostly wrapped up in fever dreams of "jackbooted thugs" taking over, yet who eagerly if temporarily join with violent police departments in their mutual antipathy of nonwhite people).

Will this particular case lead to massive protests? Maybe, in the future - people are protesting Breonna Taylor's murder at the moment, but a revelation months down the line could easily spark another round in the future, assuming there's nothing people are also protesting at that point.

Was it justified? Not really, no. As others have said, armed and trigger-happy cops are likely the last people who should respond to anyone having a mental health crisis (I've been told this be many people, and will repeat it again - it's preferable to call the local fire department or hospital, by number, than to just call 911 and hope for the best, if you live with a person who is prone to such episodes).

 

[Mumbles]

Having a camera running used to be a good defense against police brutality - not anymore.

Gonna disagree on that one:

 

[RolandRat]

"Protests and anger over the shooting death of a homeless Black man by an Orange County sheriff’s deputy led city officials to declare an emergency 9 p.m. curfew in San Clemente Thursday. But a nighttime demonstration dispersed an hour earlier.

The City Council will reconvene in a special meeting Friday at 5:30 p.m. to decide whether to extend the curfew further.

Also Thursday, the Orange County Sheriff’s Department released a grainy photo that Sheriff Don Barnes said shows the man, Kurt Andras Reinhold, reaching for a deputy’s service weapon during a fight, shortly before he was shot and killed by a deputy.

A security camera from the hotel reportedly captured at least part of the altercation. The sheriff’s department did not release the video,

Barnes during a news conference on Thursday afternoon urged people to reserve judgment until the killing can be investigated.

Two deputies with a homeless outreach team encountered Reinhold, 42, around 1:15 Wednesday near the Hotel Miramar. Reinhold had come to the San Clemente area around 30 days prior, and members of the homeless outreach team had attempted on previous occasions to “try to establish a dialogue” with him to offer homeless services, the sheriff said.

Barnes said he could not comment on why the deputies contacted Reinhold on Wednesday, or on what led to the physical altercation. The sheriff did not identify the deputies, but said they were both trained in crisis intervention and de-escalation techniques.

The sheriff declined to comment on whether the deputies had a lawful reason to detain Reinhold, noting that the deputies and some witnesses have yet to be interviewed."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/09...o-he-says-shows-man-reaching-for-deputys-gun/