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Pirates vs. America

Oliver

Penultimate Amazing
Oliver
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
17,396
Most of you probably heard about the Swedish Torrent-Site "The Pirate Bay", which is a pain in the Ass for copyright-holders all around the globe - because their Site doesn't violate Swedish Laws nor International Agreements.

But even if I don't support copyright violation, I think their resistance against the big cooperations like Apple, Warner, Microsoft, MPAA, Dreamworks ... is pretty boastful , but quite amusing:

http://thepiratebay.org/legal


> Dear Mr. Neij:
>
> It has been brought to the attention of Electronic Arts Inc. ("EA") that
> the website http://www.piratebay.org with the IP addresses of
> 217.75.120.115, 217.75.120.116, 217.75.120.118 is conducting
> unauthorized activities with respect to EA's copyrighted software, The
> Sims 2. The aforementioned website is offering and distributing
> bittorrent seeds for an unauthorized downloadable version of this EA
> game.

Hello and thank you for contacting us. We have shut down the website in
question.

Oh wait, just kidding. We haven't, since the site in question is fully
legal. Unlike certain other countries, such as the one you're in, we have
sane copyright laws here. But we also have polar bears roaming the
streets and attacking people :-(.

> This unauthorized activity with respect to the distribution of EA's
> software products constitutes infringement of EA's intellectual property
> rights. EA enforces its intellectual property rights very aggressively
> by using every legal option available.

Please don't sue us right now, our lawyer is passed out in an alley from
too much moonshine, so please at least wait until he's found and doesn't
have a huge hangover...

> As you are listed as the registrant for this website, EA demands that
> you immediately and permanently disable access to the aforementioned
> bittorrent seeds for The Sims 2 and any in the future.

You're free to demand anything you want. So are we. We demand that you
cease and desist sending letters like this, since they're frivolous and
meaningless. Where should I send the bill for the consumed diskspace and
bandwidth?

> Thank you for your cooperation. If you have any questions concerning
> this matter, please contact us via e-mail at:
> piracy-online@ea.com.

Thank you for your entertainment. As with all other threats, we will
publish this one on http://static.thepiratebay.org/legal/

Source: http://static.thepiratebay.org/ea_response.txt
Click to expand...


So what do you guys think?
Who will win this nasty fight between Swedish and US-Law?
Is Sweden the next country that has to be "democratized" to US-Standards? :D
 
From Wiki:

The Pirate Bay is well known for the "legal" page it hosts[9], featuring copyright infringement notices and cease and desist letters that The Pirate Bay claims to have received from various organizations, along with mocking replies. One of the site's co-operators, Peter, explains: "They are rude in a polite way. We are rude in a rude way back at them.
Click to expand...

:)

How is this site allowed to operate legally again? Assuming Wiki is accurate: "In July 2005, new anti-piracy legislation was enacted in Sweden which made the distribution of software for the purposes of copyright violation illegal."
 
???

Point me to the section that makes this a "nasty fight between Swedish and US-law." You posted a letter from a private entity (Electronic Arts) to the Pirate Buy. EA didn't cite any US laws, they simply pointed out that The Pirate Bay was facilitating the download of its software without compensation or permission.

And, as far as I know, the legality of the Pirate Bay has not been fully decided yet even in Sweden, and under the European Union Copyright Directive. I would say it is dubious, at best.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
???

Point me to the section that makes this a "nasty fight between Swedish and US-law." You posted a letter from a private entity (Electronic Arts) to the Pirate Buy. EA didn't cite any US laws, they simply pointed out that The Pirate Bay was facilitating the download of its software without compensation or permission.

And, as far as I know, the legality of the Pirate Bay has not been fully decided yet even in Sweden, and under the European Union Copyright Directive. I would say it is dubious, at best.
Click to expand...


You should read all the Emails on their Website. I'm afraid that it might be against the profanity-rules to post the nasty parts. :boxedin:

Anyway: "In May 2007 prosecutor Håkan Roswall made it clear that he intends to press charges against the administrators of The Pirate Bay.[4] That same month, new information has leaked which shows that the Swedish police has nothing to give to the district attorney, and doesn’t have a strong case.[27]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirate_Bay#Aftermath

 
Oliver said:
You should read all the Emails on their Website. I'm afraid that it might be against the profanity-rules to post the nasty parts. :boxedin:

Anyway: "In May 2007 prosecutor Håkan Roswall made it clear that he intends to press charges against the administrators of The Pirate Bay.[4] That same month, new information has leaked which shows that the Swedish police has nothing to give to the district attorney, and doesn’t have a strong case.[27]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pirate_Bay#Aftermath
Click to expand...

I'm actually quite familiar with the Pirate Bay and its legal battles, having some interest in it myself. You still haven't cited anything that makes this a fight between Swedish and US laws. You just showed that a Swedish Prosecutor intends to prosecute the site, and that perhaps it won't go very well. I'm not seeing "US Law" in there anywhere.

I'm sure the US government has talked to the Swedish government about the Pirate Bay, given that the site provides access to tons of material owned by U.S. companies. It is, after all, kinda sorta the job of the US government to protect US Citizens and interests.
 
Morrigan said:
How is copyright infringement "theft"?
Click to expand...

The same way that stealing cable television is theft: using a service provided or created by someone else without paying them compensation.

ETA: Whether or not it fits a strict legal definition of theft is probably questionable. In a general sense of the word "theft," however, I think it is appropriate.
 
Morrigan, I assume you are pointing out that copyright infringement and theft are distinct terms and the website engages in the former rather than the latter. Am I correct or are you implying that copyright infringement should be ok?
 
quixotecoyote said:
Morrigan, I assume you are pointing out that copyright infringement and theft are distinct terms and the website engages in the former rather than the latter. Am I correct or are you implying that copyright infringement should be ok?
Click to expand...

Neither, really. Piratebay is apparently not violating any Swedish law as of yet, so they can't be accused of copyright infringement.
I was saying that copyright infringement is not the same thing as theft and to equate the two is asinine, really. Especially when you consider that a lot of that so-called copyright infringement is done by people who had no intention of buying the product in the first place, making the whole "but it's taking their money!" point moot.
 
quixotecoyote said:
Software isn't really a service as cable is. It's closer to a product.
Click to expand...

I agree generally, although I think software ends up somewhere in between a product and service. Unlike most products, software can be created an infinite number of times. As such, you aren't stealing a physical thing as much as you are stealing the service that the company provided -- which was writing the software, plus maintaining it with updates, patches, and the like.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
I agree generally, although I think software ends up somewhere in between a product and service. Unlike most products, software can be created an infinite number of times. As such, you aren't stealing a physical thing as much as you are stealing the service that the company provided -- which was writing the software, plus maintaining it with updates, patches, and the like.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying, but I think it's a stretch. It's not directly harming anyone, rather it invalidates an economic model of business. I'm not saying that's ok or that we as a society shouldn't try to put a stop to it. What I am saying is that to attempt to equate it with theft is to obscure the issue and attempt to address it in the wrong terms.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
I'm actually quite familiar with the Pirate Bay and its legal battles, having some interest in it myself. You still haven't cited anything that makes this a fight between Swedish and US laws. You just showed that a Swedish Prosecutor intends to prosecute the site, and that perhaps it won't go very well. I'm not seeing "US Law" in there anywhere.

I'm sure the US government has talked to the Swedish government about the Pirate Bay, given that the site provides access to tons of material owned by U.S. companies. It is, after all, kinda sorta the job of the US government to protect US Citizens and interests.
Click to expand...


Since you claim to be familiar with this Issue but obviously failed to read the letters that clearly talk about the contradiction between Swedish and US-Copyright Laws:

What do you think the controversy is about if not Laws? ... Hobbits and Elves? :rolleyes:
 
Morrigan said:
Neither, really. Piratebay is apparently not violating any Swedish law as of yet, so they can't be accused of copyright infringement.
Click to expand...

They sure can be accused of copyright infringement. The Pirate Bay is essentially playing stupid with their claims of not violating the law. They're claiming that since they don't actually host the torrents themselves, they aren't violating anything -- they're just enabling other people to violate copyright if they so desire. Kind of like if I decided to hand out the phone numbers of known drug dealers.

"Here, I'm just giving you a phone number *wink wink*"

Morrigan said:
I was saying that copyright infringement is not the same thing as theft and to equate the two is asinine, really. Especially when you consider that a lot of that so-called copyright infringement is done by people who had no intention of buying the product in the first place, making the whole "but it's taking their money!" point moot.
Click to expand...

Uhmm.. generally speaking, most people who steal something don't intend to by it in the first place. That's why they steal it. I'm not sure how that makes it not stealing. People are downloading a product (or service) that someone else created, and are using that product for their own benefit without compensating the people who created. That counts as theft in my book.
 
Oliver said:
Since you claim to be familiar with this Issue but obviously failed to read the letters that clearly talk about the contradiction between Swedish and US-Copyright Laws:

What do you think the controversy is about if not Laws? ... Hobbits and Elves? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Ugh. I have read almost everything on their site, thanks, and I am well aware that there are differences between Swedish and US Copyright Laws. You are still not showing me how Swedish Police raiding a Swedish web site and a Swedish prosecutor threatening to prosecute that Swedish site makes this case a fight between US and Swedish Law.
 
quixotecoyote said:
I get what you're saying, but I think it's a stretch. It's not directly harming anyone, rather it invalidates an economic model of business. I'm not saying that's ok or that we as a society shouldn't try to put a stop to it. What I am saying is that to attempt to equate it with theft is to obscure the issue and attempt to address it in the wrong terms.
Click to expand...

I disagree that it's a stretch, but I am more talking about general usage of theft as opposed to legalities. I agree, from a legal standpoint copyright infringement is not theft, nor should it be. When people equate the two, however, they aren't usually talking in legalities, just in general principles. In principle, I think copyright infringement is theft. Legally, I don't think they are the same, nor do I think the ought to be the same.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
They sure can be accused of copyright infringement. The Pirate Bay is essentially playing stupid with their claims of not violating the law. They're claiming that since they don't actually host the torrents themselves, they aren't violating anything -- they're just enabling other people to violate copyright if they so desire. Kind of like if I decided to hand out the phone numbers of known drug dealers.

"Here, I'm just giving you a phone number *wink wink*"
Click to expand...
This is moving the goalposts, though, isn't it? If Piratebay has not been found guilty by any Swedish court, then they're not breaking the law, now are they. At that point, it doesn't matter if you think that they get away with it through a loophole or if you think Swedish law is flawed. ;)

Uhmm.. generally speaking, most people who steal something don't intend to by it in the first place. That's why they steal it. I'm not sure how that makes it not stealing. People are downloading a product (or service) that someone else created, and are using that product for their own benefit without compensating the people who created. That counts as theft in my book.
Click to expand...

I disagree. If I don't want to pay for a car (whether it's because I'm cheap or can't afford one or any other reason), will thus not buy one, and therefore steal yours, I am taking something away from you. I am removing your property from you and making it mine, and you are effectively losing your property.
On the other hand, if I don't want to pay for your music CD, I'm not going to buy it. But if I download it, you still have your music intact. I am not taking it away from you - you still have it. You didn't lose any property, not even money, because I would not have given you money anyway. You might be irritated that I am enjoying your music without having paid for it, and I could understand that, but it's not at all the same thing as theft.

That's why theft and copyright infringement are two different offenses, and are treated differently.
 
ARubberChickenWithAPulley said:
Ugh. I have read almost everything on their site, thanks, and I am well aware that there are differences between Swedish and US Copyright Laws. You are still not showing me how Swedish Police raiding a Swedish web site and a Swedish prosecutor threatening to prosecute that Swedish site makes this case a fight between US and Swedish Law.
Click to expand...


That's easy. If there were no copyright-laws in the US, it wouldn't be such an issue at all. The American copyright-holders are complaining about the Case because their Non-Swedish laws. Also the US government put pressure upon the Swedish Government, as far I remember. It's all about Laws - and a fight between swedish and American/non-Swedish interests - based on laws. You're trying to tweak my nose here, aren't you? :confused:

I posted the quote from Wikipedia because it showed "that the Swedish police has nothing to give to the district attorney, and doesn’t have a strong case" - which contradicts with Cains Quote: "In July 2005, new anti-piracy legislation was enacted in Sweden which made the distribution of software for the purposes of copyright violation illegal". The case is still open.
 
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